T
tabsie3210
Guest
I can’t make any claim to know anything that anybody else doesn’t, but some things in the Bible always made me wonder exactly how the “pre-destined” thing worked myself.
Look at Abraham: “If there are only 5 good people, are you still going to destroy the city?”
“No, if you find five good people, I won’t destroy the city.”
Look at Jonah: God would have destroyed the city and everyone in it, human or animal, if Jonah hadn’t gone and preached to them, and thus saved them all.
Look at Jesus: He said himself that if Sodomn had seen his miracles, the entire city (as bad as it was) would have repented, and he was speaking with the authority of someone who knows, not is taking a guess. Plus, even he didn’t know when the end of the world was coming; only the Father knows.
I don’t begin to pretend that my assessment might be “right,” but it’s something that I’ve considered. God is totally all powerful. He’s not constrained by ANYTHING. And time doesn’t really exist, since it’s just how objects relate to each other over an enthropic period. Go faster than the speed of light and it just stops. Boom. There it is. Time has its limits.
If God is all-powerful, and He is, then it would seem to ME (this isn’t Catholic teaching, so you can discard it if you want to) that God should be able to modify things within time, so that the outcome differs depending on His absolute Divine Will.
It helps me to think of Predestination as a framework. God knows what He wants to have done and He picks and chooses when and where and how He lets things happen. He has absolute control.
He knows both what will happen and what might have happened. To my mind, that means in some fashion the alternatives to our choices exist, but I don’t believe it’s some kind of parallel dimension where if you crossed over you’d see how different things are. I mean that God reserves the right to change things as He sees fit.
So let’s say that I’m predestined to go to Hell. I live a rotten life, keep doing horrible things, deny God, etc. Now, God is all merciful, too. So he throws my way a friend who’s a good Catholic who loves God and enjoys sharing His Word with others. She’s also someone I can put up with because she’s got a great personality, and I “forgive” her for being Catholic.
Now imagine my friend prays and prays and prays that I be converted. I’ve already decided, I’m going to Hell. I don’t want God or need Him, thank you very much. But my friend is stubborn. First off, God loves her and wants to give her good things. Second, God loves me despite the fact that I make Him roll His eyes on a daily basis.
He is ALL POWERFUL. If He so chooses, why couldn’t He alter my destiny out of love for his faithful Daughter and out of an attempt to keep me out of hell? He throws something else my way, a book on Christianity that makes sense. I start to think, “Well, maybe,” and then I start feeling guilty about my behavior. He’s opened the door wide and is inviting me in. Now, I could say, “No,” and well, there you have it. Back to Hell.
If, however, given everything He’s poured onto me, I turn and say, “Okay, I’d like to believe, but I need help. God, help me.” And I set about converting to Catholicism and start going to Mass, saying confession, etc.
God actively changed the outcome. The framework was there - I was born, I met my friend, I married so-and-so, I had X number of kids, etc. The outcome was going to be damnation. But, since God is the absolute author of everything, he has the ability to change destiny if a human, given free will, desires to do God’s will.
This isn’t one of those, “Everything’s in flux, we make our own destiny, God can’t see the future,” bits. That’s bogus. God can do anything at any time. We know He actively alters matter and energy, and we call those alterations “miracles.” Why shouldn’t time be the same way? A miraculous change comes over me through God’s graces, and I change my mind. I’m not interested in damnation anymore, because God has been calling to me. He isn’t forced to follow some strict outline, or else he’s not all powerful. At the same time, He knows exactly what He wants, and will arrange everything perfectly to suite His desire and needs.
Jesus would have been born no matter what, and the redemption of mankind would have taken place under any circumstances. But God has absolute control over when and where and can decide what factors He’s looking for to make everything perfect. And nothing can be changed, at all, without His Will being involved. It’s His power, not ours.
I guess my feeling is just that pre-destination, the way that Calvinists see it, is awfully darn limiting to a limitless God. And we are not supposed to fall into that trap; we always have free will. People are not “doomed” to go to Hell because God arbitrarily decided, “I’m going to save X and X and X but those other guys, naaah.”
Like I said, I don’t know that my interpretation is right. I just think that God can do anything, so He should be able to change things according to what He wants to do. It’s how He keeps control over every situation.
Look at Abraham: “If there are only 5 good people, are you still going to destroy the city?”
“No, if you find five good people, I won’t destroy the city.”
Look at Jonah: God would have destroyed the city and everyone in it, human or animal, if Jonah hadn’t gone and preached to them, and thus saved them all.
Look at Jesus: He said himself that if Sodomn had seen his miracles, the entire city (as bad as it was) would have repented, and he was speaking with the authority of someone who knows, not is taking a guess. Plus, even he didn’t know when the end of the world was coming; only the Father knows.
I don’t begin to pretend that my assessment might be “right,” but it’s something that I’ve considered. God is totally all powerful. He’s not constrained by ANYTHING. And time doesn’t really exist, since it’s just how objects relate to each other over an enthropic period. Go faster than the speed of light and it just stops. Boom. There it is. Time has its limits.
If God is all-powerful, and He is, then it would seem to ME (this isn’t Catholic teaching, so you can discard it if you want to) that God should be able to modify things within time, so that the outcome differs depending on His absolute Divine Will.
It helps me to think of Predestination as a framework. God knows what He wants to have done and He picks and chooses when and where and how He lets things happen. He has absolute control.
He knows both what will happen and what might have happened. To my mind, that means in some fashion the alternatives to our choices exist, but I don’t believe it’s some kind of parallel dimension where if you crossed over you’d see how different things are. I mean that God reserves the right to change things as He sees fit.
So let’s say that I’m predestined to go to Hell. I live a rotten life, keep doing horrible things, deny God, etc. Now, God is all merciful, too. So he throws my way a friend who’s a good Catholic who loves God and enjoys sharing His Word with others. She’s also someone I can put up with because she’s got a great personality, and I “forgive” her for being Catholic.
Now imagine my friend prays and prays and prays that I be converted. I’ve already decided, I’m going to Hell. I don’t want God or need Him, thank you very much. But my friend is stubborn. First off, God loves her and wants to give her good things. Second, God loves me despite the fact that I make Him roll His eyes on a daily basis.
He is ALL POWERFUL. If He so chooses, why couldn’t He alter my destiny out of love for his faithful Daughter and out of an attempt to keep me out of hell? He throws something else my way, a book on Christianity that makes sense. I start to think, “Well, maybe,” and then I start feeling guilty about my behavior. He’s opened the door wide and is inviting me in. Now, I could say, “No,” and well, there you have it. Back to Hell.
If, however, given everything He’s poured onto me, I turn and say, “Okay, I’d like to believe, but I need help. God, help me.” And I set about converting to Catholicism and start going to Mass, saying confession, etc.
God actively changed the outcome. The framework was there - I was born, I met my friend, I married so-and-so, I had X number of kids, etc. The outcome was going to be damnation. But, since God is the absolute author of everything, he has the ability to change destiny if a human, given free will, desires to do God’s will.
This isn’t one of those, “Everything’s in flux, we make our own destiny, God can’t see the future,” bits. That’s bogus. God can do anything at any time. We know He actively alters matter and energy, and we call those alterations “miracles.” Why shouldn’t time be the same way? A miraculous change comes over me through God’s graces, and I change my mind. I’m not interested in damnation anymore, because God has been calling to me. He isn’t forced to follow some strict outline, or else he’s not all powerful. At the same time, He knows exactly what He wants, and will arrange everything perfectly to suite His desire and needs.
Jesus would have been born no matter what, and the redemption of mankind would have taken place under any circumstances. But God has absolute control over when and where and can decide what factors He’s looking for to make everything perfect. And nothing can be changed, at all, without His Will being involved. It’s His power, not ours.
I guess my feeling is just that pre-destination, the way that Calvinists see it, is awfully darn limiting to a limitless God. And we are not supposed to fall into that trap; we always have free will. People are not “doomed” to go to Hell because God arbitrarily decided, “I’m going to save X and X and X but those other guys, naaah.”
Like I said, I don’t know that my interpretation is right. I just think that God can do anything, so He should be able to change things according to what He wants to do. It’s how He keeps control over every situation.
I didn’t say that at all. Please try to read my posts charitably. I’m trying to talk about this without offending anyone and still discuss the topic.