Pre-existence of the Soul: Heresy?

[Neil_Anthony]

The fifth ecumenical council (Constantinople II) said

IF anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema.

Does this leave room to believe in some versions of pre-existence of the soul before conception, as long as it isn’t the fabulous version, and as long as it isn’t accompanied by the “monstrous restoration”? E.g. could a Catholic believe that their soul existed in paradise before being sent to this world as a baby?

 

[svid]

I’m going to say no. In this case “fabulous” means it’s a fable. False. A fabrication. An expert can correct me (and should) but I believe that the soul is created at the moment of conception.

 

[paduard]

I’m going to say no. In this case “fabulous” means it’s a fable. False. A fabrication. An expert can correct me (and should) but I believe that the soul is created at the moment of conception.

I agree i.e. No.

God does of course have foreknowledge of what souls have and are to come into being by way of conception. But that is another matter.

 

[Garyjohn2]

This is very interesting! I think that many people (including me) have never thought about this. I always kind of assumed that souls pre-existed this life…

Does anyone have any more information on where the belief that souls are not pre-existent comes from, or more resources on this topic?

thanks!

 

[grannymh]

The fifth ecumenical council (Constantinople II) said

Does this leave room to believe in some versions of pre-existence of the soul before conception, as long as it isn’t the fabulous version, and as long as it isn’t accompanied by the “monstrous restoration”? E.g. could a Catholic believe that their soul existed in paradise before being sent to this world as a baby?

“As a baby” – Sounds like a baby without a body.
Cartesian extreme dualism?

My humble suggestion is to first check the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition *for the article on “Body and Soul but Truly One” Paragraphs 362-366.

My second suggestion is to understand human nature which in itself unites the material and spiritual worlds. Start with Paragraph 355 of the Catechism and keep reading…

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[Katholish]

It is the *de fide *teaching of the Church that souls do not exist before their infusion in a body. It is mentioned in other magisterial statements other than just Constantinople II which was attacking the Origenist doctrine of pre-existence.

 

[Gregory_I]

I think this question touches on this:

I believe in the immaculate conception, but a thought exercise:

We all agree mary needed a savior.

We all agree that she was saved in light of the merits of Christ on the cross.

BUT, how can she be saved from the FIRST INSTANT of her conception?
For something to be saved, it must first exist.
Can you save that which does not yet exist?

But existence is brought about by conception.
THerefore it would seem that Mary, in order to be saved, must necessarily exist to BE saved, and her existence is from the first moment of her conception; THerefore Aquinas was right and she was sanctified in her mothers womb from her birth.
OR Her soul was created, and then sanctified and then enfleshed in her conception, but then does that mean that her soul is older than her body?

Where is the actual ontological change from unsaved to saved? For if she acknowledges her need for a savior, she must have at one point neede saving. But if she was created ex nihilo out of grace, in what way was she saved? Or by saved, do we simply mean preserved intact,and saved from all sin itself?

 

[grannymh]

Where is the actual ontological change from unsaved to saved? For if she acknowledges her need for a savior, she must have at one point neede saving. But if she was created ex nihilo out of grace, in what way was she saved? Or by saved, do we simply mean preserved intact,and saved from all sin itself?

First. One needs to understand Original Sin which is a contracted state transmitted by propagation. It is removed by the grace of God through the Sacrament of Baptism.

Second. Catholic teaching is that “God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His Sacraments.” Read Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 1257 along with paragraph 1260.

Conclusion. God independently removed the state of Original Sin from the soul of Mary.

Third. Catholicism has additional Sacraments which provide grace so that we humans can lead a holy life in conformity to the teachings of Jesus Christ and thus live in friendship with God.

Fourth. Mary was human and thus subject to temptation. She needed the other Sacraments to continue in her holy state and thus she needed the Savior who established these Sacraments. Catholics do not ascribe to the “once saved always saved” philosophy. Catholicism is basically logical in that it recognizes human nature just as its Founder did. Catholicism teaches the reality that during the whole of our lives, we need the grace of God.

Conclusion. While normally, we do not think of Mary sinning, does that mean we should deny her the Real Presence of Jesus the Savior, in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? Mary considered herself a humble servant dependent on God’s love. Thus she knew she needed Our Savior in order to live in total holiness. In fact, she longed for Our Savior and His grace. Please do not confuse her with people filled with pride.

Blessings,
granny

The Gospel of John, Chapter Six

 

[Garyjohn2]

Or by saved, do we simply mean preserved intact,and saved from all sin itself?

This.

I head a priest talking about this on the radio, and he used a good example for comparison. Say you fall in a hole, and you can’t climb out. If someone comes along and lends you a hand, that person has saved you. They are your savior in a way. Now say another person comes walking along, and someone says “hey, watch out for that hole!” That second person was also saved from the hole, though they never fell in it. A savior is present in both situations, just a little differently.

It makes sense to me anyways!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is the *de fide *teaching of the Church that souls do not exist before their infusion in a body. It is mentioned in other magisterial statements other than just Constantinople II which was attacking the Origenist doctrine of pre-existence.

Do you have a reference for this? My cursory look through the dogmas here didn’t turn that one up. I would appreciate it!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

“As a baby” – Sounds like a baby without a body.
Cartesian extreme dualism?

Hmm… I mean that the soul would enter this into this world at the time and place that a conception was occurring, as the soul of this new baby.

 

[grannymh]

Hmm… I mean that the soul would enter this into this world at the time and place that a conception was occurring, as the soul of this new baby.

I understand what you are getting at. However, you keep referring to the soul as separate from the body which is what Descartes wrongly thought. May I respectfully point out that souls do not enter the world as if there were a warehouse of spirits somewhere waiting for God to choose which one deserves to be let out.

While Catholicism considers that human nature in itself unites the spiritual and material worlds, the unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body. Conception brings about the complete single nature of a true human. This nature is different than that of an animal which is conceived solely as an animal, i.e. a material anatomy.

On the other hand, you and I are animated by a spiritual soul which is why we are made in the “Image” of God. This is why we are called to share, through knowledge and love, in God’s own life for the eternity. Our soul is created immediately by God so that the union of man and woman results in a truly human person right from the get-go.

I do realize that some greeting card companies like to picture a new baby as some kind of angel floating down from heaven. That is fine for their profit margin, but it does not reflect the reality of who we are as persons.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[davidv]

I understand what you are getting at. However, you keep referring to the soul as separate from the body which is what Descartes wrongly thought. May I respectfully point out that souls do not enter the world as if there were a warehouse of spirits somewhere waiting for God to choose which one deserves to be let out.

While Catholicism considers that human nature in itself unites the spiritual and material worlds, the unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body. Conception brings about the complete single nature of a true human. This nature is different than that of an animal which is conceived solely as an animal, i.e. a material anatomy.

On the other hand, you and I are animated by a spiritual soul which is why we are made in the “Image” of God. This is why we are called to share, through knowledge and love, in God’s own life for the eternity. Our soul is created immediately by God so that the union of man and woman results in a truly human person right from the get-go.

I do realize that some greeting card companies like to picture a new baby as some kind of angel floating down from heaven. That is fine for their profit margin, but it does not reflect the reality of who we are as persons.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

Which is all supported by Catholic teaching.

366The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

 

[Gregory_I]

God independently removed the state of Original Sin from the soul of Mary.

For God to do that, either her soul pre-existed her body, making her older than her body,

Or, her existence being wrought by her conception, she was saved at some point AFTER that, even 1/600000000000 of a milisecond later, she would still not be immaculately conceived.

So which one?

 

[grannymh]

For God to do that, either her soul pre-existed her body, making her older than her body,

Or, her existence being wrought by her conception, she was saved at some point AFTER that, even 1/600000000000 of a milisecond later, she would still not be immaculately conceived.

So which one?

It is not my intention to limit God to an either-or situation. I do not underestimate the power of God.

Blessings,
granny

Luke 23: 33-43

 

[Gregory_I]

Very well. Neither do I.

 

[JDaniel]

Gosh! I dearly hate to bring this poor Saint into this conversation, as I was almost certain that all Catholics would already know what he taught. However, I shall drop his name: St. Thomas Aquinas.

St. Thomas Aquinas taught us what First Causes of motion/change are. They are: Privation, Form, and Act. The adherence of Form to Privation (Primary Matter), is simultaneous with Act, existence. It is not separated by some distance or quantification. Motion is defined as the act of the potential precisely as potential. Therefore, the apparent separation we conceive is where conception has not yet occurred, but is about to occur.

Form, which is the formal cause and which is the animating principle of the human being, is created by an Act of Creation. So, it is brand-spanking new. Primary Matter has no formal cause yet, hence it is not yet a part of the makeup of what the Catholic Church understands to be the Soul. The union of the formal cause and the material cause is that which provides us with a unique individual, even if twinned. The instant of union is the instant of creation and, therefore, the instant of conception. God’s foreknowledge of the conception of Mary, and his Omnipotence, permit him to remove Original Sin at the very moment form and matter unite. Therefore, Mary’s soul does not pre-exist her conception. Rather, it was simultaneous with it.

God bless,
jd

 

[Efron_Ha_Hitti]

What about Jeremiah 1:5 – “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you”?

 

[paduard]

What about Jeremiah 1:5 – “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you”?

Good point.
paduard

 

[Efron_Ha_Hitti]

Yeah, I can’t believe nobody’s brought it up before! Looking forward to some challenges…