Pre-marital sex

[katholicos]

I am 18. My friend, who regards himself as Catholic, says that he intends to have sex before marriage. He takes a Catholic stance on all moral issues, apart from this (and contraception). He says that he (his conscience) doesn’t have a problem with it, and quotes the Catechism: ‘A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.’ (1800)

What should I say to him? I do not want to harm our friendship!

Callum (NJ)

 

[VociMike]

Let’s be real - it’s not his conscience that is giving him the thumbs-up for extra-marital sex.

Anyway, since he’s quoted the Catechism to you, you can quote it back to him. The entire section on conscience is good (1776-1802). For example:

*790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.*

If your friend is intellectually honest he will see himself in those words.

 

[katholicos]

Thanks VociMike; had a chat with him today and he agreed that he was being intellectually dishonest.

But how do I explain the benefits of this ‘lifestyle choice’?

He takes great pride in being ‘Catholic’, and when I put it to him that by ‘disagreeing’ with official Church teaching he is being thoroughly un-Catholic, he says that he believes in (for eg) transubstantiation, and this makes him more Catholic than any other religion, therefore he is Catholic. What do I say?

And how come some theologians seem legitimately to be able to ‘disagree’ with official doctrine, and he can’t?

 

[Church_Militant]

He’s rationalizing: Send Him these links CCC 2348-55 and CCC 2514-2520

Offenses against chastity

2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”

ARTICLE 9
THE NINTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor's.299

Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.300

2514 St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.301 In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.
…

I. PURIFICATION OF THE HEART

2517 The heart is the seat of moral personality: "Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication. . . . "305 The struggle against carnal covetousness entails purifying the heart and practicing temperance:

Remain simple and innocent, and you will be like little children who do not know the evil that destroys man's life.306

2518 The sixth beatitude proclaims, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."307 “Pure in heart” refers to those who have attuned their intellects and wills to the demands of God’s holiness, chiefly in three areas: charity;308 chastity or sexual rectitude;309 love of truth and orthodoxy of faith.310 There is a connection between purity of heart, of body, and of faith:

The faithful must believe the articles of the Creed "so that by believing they may obey God, by obeying may live well, by living well may purify their hearts, and with pure hearts may understand what they believe."311

2519 The “pure in heart” are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him.312 Purity of heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God, to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbor’s - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

II. THE BATTLE FOR PURITY

2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail

• by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;

• by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;313

• by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;314

• by prayer:

I thought that continence arose from one's own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know . . . that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.315

 

[katholicos]

Thanks for your reply.

But still, how come there is quite a body of theologians who are (for example) pro-contraception? I gather that before Vatican II, they recommended a relaxation of the rules, before the Pope overuled. What makes him right?

Many people were hoping for a ‘more liberal’ pope after John Paul II, who would relax the rules: if it is within the realms of possibility that the teaching might be changed, what is wrong with disobeying official doctrine if you genuinely believe you are right? (Especially since many Catholic priests promote contraception.)

The Church has admitted it was wrong in previous cases. What is to stop it doing so here?

 

[estesbob]

Thanks for your reply.

But still, how come there is quite a body of theologians who are (for example) pro-contraception? I gather that before Vatican II, they recommended a relaxation of the rules, before the Pope overuled. What makes him right?

Quiote a body of Catholic Theologians? I know of a very few but not “quite a body” And what makes the Pope right is Christ entrusted his Chuch to him.

Many people were hoping for a ‘more liberal’ pope after John Paul II, who would relax the rules: if it is within the realms of possibility that the teaching might be changed, what is wrong with disobeying official doctrine if you genuinely believe you are right? (Especially since many Catholic priests promote contraception.)

Many Catholic Priests promote contraception? That has not been my experience-in fact I have NEVER run across one who does.

The Church has admitted it was wrong in previous cases. What is to stop it doing so here?

They have? On matters of faith and Morals?

 

[mike182d]

what is wrong with disobeying official doctrine if you genuinely believe you are right? (Especially since many Catholic priests promote contraception.)

Logic.

 

[mike182d]

I am 18. My friend, who regards himself as Catholic, says that he intends to have sex before marriage. He takes a Catholic stance on all moral issues, apart from this (and contraception). He says that he (his conscience) doesn’t have a problem with it, and quotes the Catechism: ‘A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.’ (1800)

What should I say to him? I do not want to harm our friendship!

Callum (NJ)

The easiest thing to do would be to tell him that couples who engaged in pre-marital sex have a higher rate of adultery in their marriages.

Which of course, makes sense. By having pre-marital sex, you’re saying that sex isn’t about the marriage vows anyway, but feelings, and these feelings can be had by other people even after you’re married.

If he thinks its wrong to have sex outside of the marital vows when he is married, then he better start practicing it now.

 

[HailMary]

I am 18. My friend, who regards himself as Catholic, says that he intends to have sex before marriage. He takes a Catholic stance on all moral issues, apart from this (and contraception). He says that he (his conscience) doesn’t have a problem with it, and quotes the Catechism: ‘A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.’ (1800)

What should I say to him? I do not want to harm our friendship!

Callum (NJ)

You should always obey your conscience, provided it is well formed. He is not a faithful catholic, he is just a person with a set of beliefs which some that map to the Catholic faith. Tell him, does he intend to be married in the Catholic Church? If he does, inform him to tell the priest that he is having pre-marital sex and the priest will not be a witness to the Marriage, nor will any other one.

If you ask him why he is having sex, then you’ll start getting somewhere with him. Eventually he’ll say because I’m selfish, once he digs deeper.

 

[kangnamdragon]

I don’t think one should say that someone who is 18 and disagrees with something the Church teaches is not Catholic. He is just misguided or not thinking with his reason. His temptation is making him justify his action or proposed action. If he has sex before marriage, he is still Catholic, just in a state of sin.

Is the OP 18 also? If so, I have renewed hope for the Church.

 

[mike182d]

I don’t think one should say that someone who is 18 and disagrees with something the Church teaches is not Catholic. He is just misguided or not thinking with his reason. His temptation is making him justify his action or proposed action. If he has sex before marriage, he is still Catholic, just in a state of sin.

Granted. But, Catholicism is not a “club” it is a faith - a belief system. To deny a particular belief is to in some way deny the faith. So, while he may have been baptized Catholic and is part of the body of Christ, it cannot be said that he is currently in communion with the Catholic Church.

Heck, anytime *I *sin, I break my communion with the Catholic Church which is why Confession and reconciliation with the Church is necessary for me to receive “communion” again.

 

[VociMike]

Thanks VociMike; had a chat with him today and he agreed that he was being intellectually dishonest.

I salute him for not being evasive.

But how do I explain the benefits of this ‘lifestyle choice’?

You mean the lifestyle choice of having extra-marital sex? Simply ask him why he wants to do so.

It’s really about using other people for our pleasure, without due regard for them as people and children of God. I know, I did it, to my shame. And “but I love her” doesn’t cut it, because true love does not hurt the other, or disregard the true needs of the other.

 

[kangnamdragon]

Granted. But, Catholicism is not a “club” it is a faith - a belief system. To deny a particular belief is to in some way deny the faith. So, while he may have been baptized Catholic and is part of the body of Christ, it cannot be said that he is currently in communion with the Catholic Church.

Heck, anytime *I *sin, I break my communion with the Catholic Church which is why Confession and reconciliation with the Church is necessary for me to receive “communion” again.

Yes, I am just taking into account the immature age of the person.

 

[HailMary]

Yes, I am just taking into account the immature age of the person.

immature age? 18 is well past of the age of reason. He is making his own decisions.

 

[kangnamdragon]

immature age? 18 is well past of the age of reason. He is making his own decisions.

Most 18 year old men do not have a mature understanding of sex.

The age of reason does not imply intelligence or maturity. How many 7 year olds actually understand what the Church teaches?

 

[teachccd]

Whomever among us that is without sin, cast the first stone… If being Catholic is determined by sin then there is no Church, just a bunch of self proclaimed Catholics. One who is predisposed to a certain sin is in need of pastoral guidance and not criticism. Heck between masturbation and birth control we’d have almost no members.

Today is Easter. Let us use the light of the risen Lord to help each other in understanding our faults and failures and help each other up. Use the Sacrament of Reconciliation and live in the conversion that Christ calls us to. We are not a perfect people but we are called to holiness. An eighteen year old will try to convince himself that pre-marital sex is permissible because he is surrounded by a culture of death. Let us, in our compassion, not push him from the faith but guide him towards it. That’s what the Jesus that I know would do… God Bless…teachccd

 

[katholicos]

Let us, in our compassion, not push him from the faith but guide him towards it.

How should I?

Incidentally, I am not an official C myself. I have been Episcopalian, followed by staunch atheism (14-17), and now find myself coming to the Truth (with a capital ‘T’). Do I have really any right to preach?

 

[HailMary]

How should I?

Incidentally, I am not an official C myself. I have been Episcopalian, followed by staunch atheism (14-17), and now find myself coming to the Truth (with a capital ‘T’). Do I have really any right to preach?

You have a duty to witness to your faith.

Don’t forget the example of St. Francis

Preach the Gospel always, and when necessary use words

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks for your reply.

But still, how come there is quite a body of theologians who are (for example) pro-contraception? I gather that before Vatican II, they recommended a relaxation of the rules, before the Pope overuled. What makes him right?

Many people were hoping for a ‘more liberal’ pope after John Paul II, who would relax the rules: if it is within the realms of possibility that the teaching might be changed, what is wrong with disobeying official doctrine if you genuinely believe you are right? (Especially since many Catholic priests promote contraception.)

The Church has admitted it was wrong in previous cases. What is to stop it doing so here?

Hmmm… couldn’t be that they are disobedient and rebellious and carnally minded now could it? :yup: Did ya happen to notice that none of them have Pope in front of their name?

 

[Genesis315]

The Pope can’t relax God’s rules.