Pre-tribulation or Post-tribulation Raputer

[crazzeto]

I’m Catholic and find that the church beliefs in a pre-tribulation rapture interesting. Where is this substantiated in the Bible? I can find probably 8 to 10 instances in the NT that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet or on the last day. My point is that those of us that are alive at the time of the abomination desolation are going through the tribulation. Those that are lukewarm christians will have their faith tested at that point. We’ll have to run the race like Paul did. The second coming of Jesus is not going to happen until after the tribulation ends and before God spills out the vials on those left behind that received the mark of the beast.

No, the left behind style idea of a pre-trib rapture is condemed by the Church, specifically because its biblically untennable. The focal point, if you will, of pre-trib theology is this passage in 1 Thess 4

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=59&ch=4&l=15&f=s#x

15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.

16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord. 17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.

The problem is that the bible is quite clear, the dead in Christ will rise on the last day. Typically it’s at this point that pre-trib believers like to try and pull out the Apocolypse of John, CH 20:

drbo.org/chapter/73020.htm

4 And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years.

However Bishop Chanoller gives us this understanding:

2 “Bound him”… The power of Satan has been very much limited by the passion of Christ: for a thousand years; that is, for the whole time of the New Testament; but especially from the time of the destruction of Babylon or pagan Rome, till the new efforts of Gog and Magog against the church, towards the end of the world. During which time the souls of the martyrs and saints live and reign with Christ in heaven, in the first resurrection, which is that of the soul to the life of glory; as the second resurrection will be that of the body, at the day of the general judgment.

Even if one were to stubbornly try to stick to a literallist interpetation of scripture, one would have to contened with Mattew 27:

51 And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were rent. 52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.

And if one looks to the scripture from which the “Left Behind” series get’s it’s name:

37 And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark, 39 And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left. 42 Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come. 43 But know this ye, that if the goodman of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open. 44 Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come. 45 Who, thinkest thou, is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath appointed over his family, to give them meat in season.

Consider this, Noe (Noah) and his family were saved by being left behind, here on earth. While the wicked were taken up, in the flood and washed from the face of the earth.

I hope this helps.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Revelations 20:4-7
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

An interesting thing about the Book of Revelation is that it was written by the last surviving apostle, John, after all the other apostles were dead. This means that Peter, Paul, and the others, did not know about the 1000 years.

Also, the book Revelation was slow in gaining acceptance into the canon. This means that for many years for the earliest Christians, its contents could not play a large part in the Christian faith.

It is ironic, then, that this book that played a minor part in the lives of the early Christians is now such a hotbed of controversy today.

 

[garysibio]

I’m Catholic and find that the church beliefs in a pre-tribulation rapture interesting. Where is this substantiated in the Bible? I can find probably 8 to 10 instances in the NT that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet or on the last day. My point is that those of us that are alive at the time of the abomination desolation are going through the tribulation. Those that are lukewarm christians will have their faith tested at that point. We’ll have to run the race like Paul did. The second coming of Jesus is not going to happen until after the tribulation ends and before God spills out the vials on those left behind that received the mark of the beast.

I know that, among Protestants who accept the belief n the rapture, there are three different positions regarding its timing. The vast majority place it at the beginning of a seven-year period known as the Great Tribulation. The Catholic Church does not teach this but I also don’t know that it specifically rejects it either. (I know the RCC rejects pre-Millenialism which those who believe in the pre-trib rapture accept, but, in theory, you could have a rapture in the Chrurch’s amillenial view.)

A lot of Protestants believe that there will be a rapture but that it will occur at the end of this Great Tribulation, at the same time that Jesus returns. I don’t know much about this view. However, it seems to me that there is not any difference of which I am aware - I’m willing to be corrected - between the post-trib rapture and the Catholic view of Jesus’ return. I recently read a Catholic book on this subject which mentioned that the Greek word parousia refers to a crowd meeting a returning king outside of the city and entering the city with him.

Pre-tribbers believe that the raptured will go to Heaven to be with Jesus during the Great Tribulation. It seems to me that post-tribbers would not have the faithful going to Heaven at this point since Jesus is returning. If anyone sees a difference between this and the Catholic view, please let me know.

 

[Ignatius]

can find probably 8 to 10 instances in the NT that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet or on the last day. My point is that those of us that are alive at the time of the abomination desolation are going through the tribulation. Those that are lukewarm christians will have their faith tested at that point. We’ll have to run the race like Paul did. The second coming of Jesus is not going to happen until after the tribulation ends and before God spills out the vials on those left behind that received the mark of the beast.

How did they lay it to rest?

References to the . . .

Those events are aspects of the Parousia, as taught by The Church since the beginning; not the Protestant doctrine of rapture which did not exist until the 19th century.

 

[rdscheirer]

Jokes on you- everybody gets in- that’s what purgatory is for!

 

[garysibio]

Those events are aspects of the Parousia as taught by The Church since the beginning; not the Protestant doctrine of rapture which did not exist until the 19th century.

I am not a believer in the pre-trib rapture but let’s be fair. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception became dogma in 1854 and the Assumption in 1950. We believe that these doctrines developed over time. While I disagree with their view on this issue, if we can have doctrines develop over time, why can’t they?

 

[NotWorthy]

I am not a believer in the pre-trib rapture but let’s be fair. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception became dogma in 1854 and the Assumption in 1950. We believe that these doctrines developed over time. While I disagree with their view on this issue, if we can have doctrines develop over time, why can’t they?

Because they existed from early on. They weren’t developed and refined in 1854 and 1950. The Church declared what had been taught for well over a 1000 years.

The Pre-Trib rapture has no historical development, except for one obscure letter written by an otherwise unknown bishop in the 3rd century.

Even among the Protestant religions, the Rapture didn’t develop. It sprang out of thin air overnight… over 300 years after the Reformation.

 

[Ignatius]

Jokes on you- everybody gets in- that’s what purgatory is for!

I’m afraid that you do not understand purgatory. You need to read this: amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-U-S/dp/0385479670

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

In short, purgatory is the purification from the temporal effects of sins which have already been forgiven.

 

[crazzeto]

I am not a believer in the pre-trib rapture but let’s be fair. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception became dogma in 1854 and the Assumption in 1950. We believe that these doctrines developed over time. While I disagree with their view on this issue, if we can have doctrines develop over time, why can’t they?

Actually, these were always beleived and became doctrinal in the years you point out. I would suggest you read the fathers to futher clairify your understanding of how Catholic teachings become Doctrine.

There are no “new discoveries” in the Catholic Church.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m afraid that you do not understand purgatory. You need to read this: amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-U-S/dp/0385479670

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

In short, purgatory is the purification from the temporal effects of sins which have already been forgiven.

Is it possible the living go through the purifying fires of purgatory (in the blink of an eye) at Christ’s return?

**They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (Rev 20:9)

the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:13-15)

Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality. And when this which is corruptible clothes itself with incorruptibility and this which is mortal clothes itself with immortality, then the word that is written shall come about: "Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor 15:51-54)**

 

[garysibio]

Because they existed from early on. They weren’t developed and refined in 1854 and 1950. The Church declared what had been taught for well over a 1000 years.

The Pre-Trib rapture has no historical development, except for one obscure letter written by an otherwise unknown bishop in the 3rd century.

Even among the Protestant religions, the Rapture didn’t develop. It sprang out of thin air overnight… over 300 years after the Reformation.

Let’s be honest. You really do not find a strong belief in the Immaculate Conception early on. Many of the Doctors of the Church rejected that belief.

 

[crazzeto]

Let’s be honest. You really do not find a strong belief in the Immaculate Conception early on. Many of the Doctors of the Church rejected that belief.

If we’re being honest anyway, then you’re incorrect.

 

[garysibio]

If we’re being honest anyway, then you’re incorrect.

Don’t just tell me I’m wrong, prove I’m wrong.

 

[crazzeto]

Don’t just tell me I’m wrong, prove I’m wrong.

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

 

[garysibio]

newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

These article prove my point. The belief in the Immaculate Conception developed over time and was not accepted by all of the early Church Fathers.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;6268332:

rdscheirer:

everyone gets in, that’s what purgatory is for

.

I’m afraid that you do not understand purgatory. You need to read this: amazon.com/Catechism-Catholic-Church-U-S/dp/0385479670

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

Is it possible the living go through the purifying fires of purgatory (in the blink of an eye) at Christ’s return?

Sure, but what does that have to do with my reply to rdscheirer? rdscheirer said that ‘everyone gets into heaven, that’s what purgatory is for’. Everyone does not get into heaven. I gave the sections of The Catechism to point out that Ihis understand of purgatory needed some work.

 

[ryanoneil]

Is it possible the living go through the purifying fires of purgatory (in the blink of an eye) at Christ’s return?

Sure, but what does that have to do with my reply to rdscheirer? rdscheirer said that ‘everyone gets into heaven, that’s what purgatory is for’. Everyone does not get into heaven. I gave the sections of The Catechism to point out that Ihis understand of purgatory needed some work.

Sorry, my comment doesn’t relate directly relate to rdscheirer’s. I just wanted your opinion. I made a mental jump after reading the CCC.

I The particular judgment
II Heaven
III The final purification
IV Hell
V The last judgment
VI The hope of the new heaven and the new earth

This seems to be the same outline as Revelation 20.

I v1-5 martyrs are rewarded with heaven
II v6-8 saints reign with Christ in heaven until he returns
III v9 Christ’s return brings a purifying fire to earth- consuming sinners and purifying saints
IV v10; 14-15 Hell
V v11-13 The last judgment
VI Chapter 21 new heaven and earth

 

[brb3]

These article prove my point. The belief in the Immaculate Conception developed over time and was not accepted by all of the early Church Fathers.

True. And not only the IC.

Much of our faith is a mystery, slowly revealed to us over time. As the Bible teaches … in the Latter Days, knowledge will increase and men will run to and fro. Nonetheless, the more we learn about the early 'primitive’Church and its saints, the more we realize how much they did understand. Some of that initial illumination ‘seems’ to have been lost … but, now being ‘rediscovered’.

I’m researching the what is known of the early Traditions. Its been very insightful and inspirational.