Pre-tribulation or Post-tribulation Raputer

  • Thread starter Thread starter shawn34_a
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Catholic Church believes that after the Anti-Christ has been eliminated that Jesus will come again and judge the whole world and separate the sheep from the goats.

Judgement yes–rapture as popularly understood by Protestants–No!
 
Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen is a great resource.
This book was the book that finally convinced me to come home to the RCC. I was an evangelical christian, before reading the book. I attended The Vineyard but loved the history of the RCC. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND this book!!!
 
More scripture
Revalations 14:14-20
14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a gol
den crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come £for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlong**s.

** 10 furlongs = 1 mile. The distance from Armagedon (plains of Magito) to Jerusalem = 160 miles. Coincidence. Don’t think so.

Revelations 20:4-6 (Those who did not receive the mark of the beast during the great tribulation)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Matthew 13:24-43 (I started with verse 37 in the paste for it explains all 3 parables)
37 “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

I don’t think the bible can be any more clear. What is even more astounding is that even at the last moment, God being so loving, still gives us a chance to repent if we keep watch.

Revelations 16:15-16 (again)
15“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
n.
shawn34_a, where did you get these quotes from? Yes, I know, ultimately the bible. But they seem to be cut-and-pasted from a web-site. If not, then my apologies.

My point is, if it is a web-site, is it a Catholic web-site promoting the Rapture, because I don’t know of any that do.
 
To Shawn:

Shawn, do you believe in the rapture, a time distinct from and before the second coming of Jesus when “true believers” are silently “caught up” to Christ in the clouds?

If you believe: (1) that there will be a one-thousand-year reign of Christ on earth in the future; (2) that “true believers” in Christ will be raptured, or taken up to heaven prior to a seven-year period of worldwide tribulation, then be aware this is a novel way of interpreting the Bible. If your belief in the rapture is integral to your Christian faith, be glad you were born in the 20th century, for if you had been born even 200 years ago, you would not find a Christian Church that teaches this. You should study the true story of how the rapture theories developed starting in the 19th century with John Nelson Darby, then the Scofield Bible, then Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth down to the present time with Tim LaHaye and the Left Behind books. This is not mainstream Christianity no matter how convincing the Biblical “proofs” are. Those who believe the rapture theories blindly accept the teachings of Scofield, Lindsey, and LaHaye as reliable guides to Bible prophecy.

Also, it’s not just another Catholic vs. Protestant disagreement; it’s rapture believers vs. all other Christians: Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and mainline Protestants. Even the founders of the major Protestant traditions, such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Wesley, didn’t believe in a secret rapture. In their position on this subject, dispensationalists and other rapture believers are actually a small, recent minority of Christians worldwide.

As for Catholics, we believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and we proclaim this every Sunday at Mass in the Nicene Creed: “He (Jesus) will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.” We are to live ever watchful for His coming, since His return may take place at any moment.

We also believe that we will be “caught up” to Christ at the Second Coming. The verses in 1 Thess 4:15-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 refer to the Second Coming, not to the secret rapture. Would there be a “trumpet blast” to announce Christ’s secret mission (the rapture) or would a “trumpet blast” be better suited for His glorious return?

At the Second Coming, Christ will come in glory and will also judge all men and usher in His eternal kingdom (Catechism of the Catholic Church 673-682). Before the second coming, there will be an ultimate trial for the Church (including religious deception and the Anti-Christ.)

We also insist, as the Scripture teaches, that Christ will return only once, not twice. The Bible never mentions a rapture distinct from the Second Coming.

What Catholics believe about the second coming of Christ is the same as the beliefs held by most mainline Protestant groups and by Eastern Orthodox churches as well.

I can understand why the rapture idea is so popular. We are all afraid of a hostile world, of suffering and of dying. We want to escape the Tribulation. But we all (Christians included) will go through a time of severe trial before the end of time (CCC 672-675, 769), just as Christ, the Head of the Church, endured suffering and death before His resurrection. Christ calls each of us to take up our cross. There’s no easy way out.
 
Rapture theology is a by-product of dispensationalism, a very odd and recent (1780’s) phenomenom. it is most certainly not something that the catholic church espouses. in fact, millenarianism is repeatedly condemned throughout the ages by faithful popes and bishops.
 
But all of my family members are devout Catholic. They were all under the impression that the Church would be raptured before the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. It apparently transcends religions.
Your family members are misinformed on this point, as are many Catholics in this un-catechized age. This is what the Church actually teaches:

When each of us dies, our souls are immediately taken to the presence of God and judged. This is called the Particular Judgment. At this point we begin our eternal destiny. If we are going to hell, our souls go directly there. If we are deemed worthy of heaven, our souls will go directly to heaven, or if we are going to heaven but are in need of purification, we may go to Purgatory first for a while (everyone in Purgatory will eventually go to heaven). Whatever our fate, our souls will stay there (heaven or hell) until the end of time, at which time the Second Coming will occur.

At the Second Coming at the end of time, those Christians still alive will be taken to heaven (what some Protestants think of as of the rapture). Then will occur the General Judgment. At that time the souls of the living and the dead will be reunited with their bodies and brought together in God’s presence and judged before all. Those who have already been judged in the Particular Judgment will be brought from wherever their souls were -heaven, hell or Purgatory-- and have their judgment confirmed before all, so that both the justice and mercy of God will be manifest to all.

After this, time and Purgatory will be no more and all will enter with their souls and bodies into their eternal destiny, either hell or heaven.

This is an extremely bare-bones sketch, so if you want to get the details, see the five articles I linked below:

rosary-center.org/ll57n1.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n2.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n3.htm
rosary-center.org/ll57n4.htm
rosary-center.org/ll49n6.htm

In addition, you have to learn to recognize erroneous teachings about the End Times popularized by fundamentalists. In other words, toss out the “Left Behind” and “Late, Great Planet Earth” baloney. Here are some resources to help you develop some discernment in these areas:

catholic.com/library/rapture.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0011fea2.asp
catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0211fea3.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9510ntg.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea5.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9812chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304bt.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9705chap.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea4.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9410fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009bite.asp
carl-olson.com/rapture_articles.html

Finally, here are some resources to help you develop a well-balanced Catholic understanding of the Book of Revelation, biblical prophecy, and eschatology. All of these are HIGHLY recommended:

The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Book of Revelation
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Major Prophets
The Navarre Bible Commentary on the Minor Prophets
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/102-2381711-9848916?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=navarre+bible

The End: The Book of Revelation, tape/CD series and Study Guide by Dr. Scott Hahn.
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=169

The Lamb’s Supper, by Dr. Scott Hahn.
amazon.com/gp/product/0385496591/sr=8-1/qid=1148926012/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2381711-9848916?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Rapture: The End Times Fiction that Leaves Truth Behind, by David Curie
sophiainstitute.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SIP&Product_Code=72-5&Category_Code=Current

Revelation Revealed, tapes/CD series by Michael Barber
saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=909

Coming Soon, a book on this same topic by Michael Barber
amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X

Introduction To Prophecy, CD set by Steve Wood
familylifecenter.net/cart/product_detail.cfm?Id=613
 
Revelations 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Here we find who is part of the first resurrection. This occurs just before Armageddon after the 7 bowels (God’s wrath) are poured out. It’s spelled out clearly. The next passage 1 Thess 4:15-17 reinforces the same thing as Revelations 20. Here the term sleep is used. As you know, to sleep in Christ is to have died in Christ. Are spiritual bodies are called up to heaven to meet Christ.

1 Thess 4:15-16
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corithians 1515-20
15Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Matthew 24:29-31
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corithians and Matthew 24 tell of the same story as the previous two do.

I’ll continue in another post just after this.
 
Your family

What your talking about I believe is in Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Break it apart. 1. We die first of course and then comes judgement. No time between death and judgement is mentioned here. However in the next verse it says that Christ will appear a second time. This time it’s for our eternal salvation for he will call us up to him in the clouds. This is absolutely consistent with the other passages.

However, if we were taught that as soon as we died, judgement came to us, Revelations 20:4 would be a lie. Revelations 20:4 specifically says "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. This refers to the first judgement. And the result of the judgement for those that died in Christ was the first resurrection. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

1 Peter 3:18-20
Deals with the death of Christ preaching to the spirits in prison. Who were the spirits in prison. The spirits, specifically mentioned are the 8 in the ark, Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. They were saved through the water (flood). The rest of the world was cleansed for their wickedness.

Matthew 12:32
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Jesus him self said on the cross, for give them Father for they know not what they do. God had hardened the Jews heart so that the fulfillment of the Gentiles can be done. But now that the fulfillment of the scriptures was complete.

Jude 1:22-23
22And on some have compassion, £making a distinction; 23but others save with fear, pulling them out of the £fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. We need to have mercy for people, being able to discern between their phycial and spiritual needs. For some people, drastic measure will need to be taken to pull them from the fire of hell.

2 Maccabees 12:39-45
This is highly contraversial to the point that only Catholic Bibles contain this book. I’ve read it, and found that the interpretation is argumentative. The people prayed for those that died. A point that could be made is time is only relative to us, not God. He already knows whose name is in the Book of Life. To create a whole theology based on this one verse is a stretch.

We will not be joined with our physical body either.
1 Corithians 15:51-54
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Joel 6:6-8 somewhat describes the incorruptibility and immortality of are bodies following the first resurrection. These are the bodies that we will take to Armegeddon.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces £are drained of color. 7. They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks. 8 They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own £column. Though they lunge between the weapons, They are not £cut down. 9. They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief

Based on all the scriptures which view or scriptures does not contradict the other. Set aside your previous teachings and figure out how everything can be reconciled in harmony. The Bible does not lie and does not contradict itself. I disagree with a lot of Protestants too. They believe we go straight to heaven or hell based on the Luke 16 parable of Lazarus and the rich man. This is one of several parables in the same chapter. Parables can not be taken literally. That parable is the same as saying it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich guy to inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Based on all the scriptures which view or scriptures does not contradict the other. Set aside your previous teachings and figure out how everything can be reconciled in harmony. The Bible does not lie and does not contradict itself.
The Catholic Church has already laid to rest the errors of pre-millinarianist Dispensationalism. Catholics can pretty much dimiss it:
**Decree of the Holy Office dated July 21, 1944: **
"In recent times on several occasions, this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world.
“The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”
“Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.” St. Augustine
 
If humanity does not get its act together, the ‘Rapture’ will be occuring a lot sooner than anyone impagined and God will NOT BE PLEASED!

Already in Siberia we see tens of thousands of square miles of frozen peat bogs melting, releasing methane-a virulent greenhouse gas, which will react with oxygen and make the atomosphere unbreathable, thereby producing slow suffocation of all species on the planet.

This beautiful planet God has given us is in iminent danger of becoming another Red Planet like Mars.
 
The Catholic Church has already laid to rest the errors of pre-millinarianist Dispensationalism. Catholics can pretty much dimiss it:
“Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.” St. Augustine
How did they lay it to rest, rewrite the Bible?

References to the Millenium

OT passages - (Is. 11:4; Jer. 3:17; Zech 14:9)
NT (Revelation 20 is the key chapter.)
Satan is bound for 1000 years

Revelations 20:4-7
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

Why interpret these passages literally?
There are some good reasons that these passages should be interpreted literally, and not symbolically. The passages themselves don’t give us any indication that they are symbolic. The number 1000 is repeated many times, and no other symbolic term is ever used to indicate some long period of time. If the Lord wanted us to know that it was a literal 1000 years, how else could He have indicated this to us? If after reading verse after verse very literally say that “such and such an event will be 1000 years, and then the next thing will happen, lasting 1000 years, and then at the end of the 1000 years so and so…” we still say it’s symbolic, I would submit that it would be impossible for the Lord to have told us that it was literal without using the word “literal 1000 years”, and this doesn’t happen in the Bible.

Where can you find this information regarding what the Catholic Church says? I cannot find anything pertaining to it. I’d be real interested in how they dismiss this.

The number 7 represents completeness. Creation took place in 6 days and God rested on the 7th. The 7th was the Sabbath. Something not scriptural that I believe coincides with scripture is that mankind will be around for 7 more days before the end of mankind. Christ’s 2nd coming will come on the 6th day and he will rest on the 7th. This being 4 days before the birth of Christ and another 2 days until the eventual 2nd coming. The 7th day represents the 1000 year reign of peace with Christ on Earth. Satan will be loosed and the eventual final judgement will take place.
 
Scott Hahn’s “The Lambs Supper” is a good view of the book of Revelation and the Mass, plus it explains the symbology used in the book of Revelation

Lambs Supper real audio format
Lambs Supper MP3 format

When you read any of the Scripture, especially the book of Revelation you have to read it in context of the times that it was written, and not filter it through our 21st century lens.
With that in mind, the dead that are go up to meet the Lord, is talking about a tradition of the people going out of the city limits to meet a king and join him on his way back into the city.
So it would be possible for the dead and others to be raised up with the Lord on his 2nd coming. But they will not be raptured before any tribulation, they will meet up with him as he is coming back to earth, just like they used to do in the biblical times.
 
Where can you find this information regarding what the Catholic Church says? I cannot find anything pertaining to it. I’d be real interested in how they dismiss this.

The number 7 represents completeness. Creation took place in 6 days and God rested on the 7th. The 7th was the Sabbath. Something not scriptural that I believe coincides with scripture is that mankind will be around for 7 more days before the end of mankind. Christ’s 2nd coming will come on the 6th day and he will rest on the 7th. This being 4 days before the birth of Christ and another 2 days until the eventual 2nd coming. The 7th day represents the 1000 year reign of peace with Christ on Earth. Satan will be loosed and the eventual final judgement will take place.
hey, shawn, there is no rapture but at the end ,but of the millennium, it hasn’t been fully resolved, so even though the Church tends to be amillennial, that is not fully official. In personal opinion, after years of meditation and contemplationl, I believe the true meaning of the Millennium is an amalgam of amill, postmill and chiliasm.

Amillies are generally pessimistic and conlcude that, because of the “wheat and tares”, there will always be significant evil in history. hence, they see TWO great ages of sin on either side of the “Millennium”, which they essentially dub the WHOLE Church age, or near whole. Hence, for them, the two great ages of resistance are pagan Rome in the beginning, and the Great Apostasy at the end. They then see the “millennium” as the great intervening period through which Christ is bringing in the Gentiles progressively maturing the good and bad.

POSTmillies are usually strong calvinists who, because of their faulty notions of justification (“Christ has saved me and I couldn’t resist Him if I wanted to”) teach that eventually the whole world will embrace the Gospel, and, from what I understand, many believe that this golden age will PERSEVERE until the Second Coming. Also, from what I understand, they see the Christianization of the world as a gradual process.

You already know chiliasm, which is to take the passage absolutely literally, so that, in their view, there are THREE great ages of sin, Rome in the beginning, the modern time apostasy, and the “Gog and Magog” ordeal after the literal “millennium.”

The problem is, after much study, I’m convinced that no ONE of these positions is completely correct. The solutiion would then in fact be a hybrid of postmill and chiliasm. In this view, there are THREE great ages of sin, like chiliasm, but the Millennium is not FULLY literal, but it’s not fully allegorical either, like amill. In this view, again there’s THREE great ages of sin in the history of the Church: Rome in the beginning, the modern MINOR apostasy and tribulation, and the GREAT apostasy of the end. the Millennium is then the great period of Catholic Restoration and Peace that lies BETWEEN the current minor apostasy, and the one of the end of the world (the great one where the big guy AC comes.) Christ’s Second Coming is then at the END of the Millennium, and what is then also the very end of time. But in this case the Millennium is not literal in the sense of a literal resurrection. It is a resurrection of FAITH, in which the modern apostate world will come back to the Church (after the glorious reunion of Christians), but Christ’s reign is still FIGURATIVE, but is a seventh day rest.

for more info, you might read these on my website, which elaborate considerably:

Historicism and the Seven Days of Creation, the Seven Headed Beast

ECF support for creation/beast historicism

Discourse on the Dragon and Millennium and Woman

all these are long but good (IMHO! 😃 )

Blessings!
🙂
scott
 
Shawn: “Where can you find this information regarding what the Catholic Church says? I cannot find anything pertaining to it. I’d be real interested in how they dismiss this.”

Shawn, look again at post #26 by Fidelis. He gave you many sources where you can find the Catholic teaching.

Following is information for three books about the Rapture written from a Catholic perspective. Fidelis listed two of these books as well. The authors are Catholic converts–Paul Thigpen (a former Pentecostal pastor), David Currie, and Carl Olson (both former fundamentalist Protestants). All three of these authors used to believe in the rapture theories and are familiar with the Biblical verses used to support the rapture theories.

amazon.com/Rapture-End-Times-Error-Leaves-Behind/dp/1928832725/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-7875634-4231921

amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922820/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-7875634-4231921

amazon.com/Will-Catholics-Left-Behind-Apologetics/dp/0898709504/sr=1-1/qid=1168517001/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7875634-4231921?ie=UTF8&s=books

Don’t get caught up in the latest theological fad. The rapture is a man-made doctrine.
 
How did they lay it to rest, rewrite the Bible?
No, the Church layed it to rest by doing what it does, interpreting the Scriptures. This is what the Church does, not the individual.

Catholics differ from protestants in that way, the Church interprets, we do not. Also we have more than just Scripture, Sola Scriptura is another protestant thing.
 
More scripture
Revalations 14:14-20
14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a gol
den crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come £for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlong**s.

** 10 furlongs = 1 mile. The distance from Armagedon (plains of Magito) to Jerusalem = 160 miles. Coincidence. Don’t think so.

Revelations 20:4-6 (Those who did not receive the mark of the beast during the great tribulation)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Matthew 13:24-43 (I started with verse 37 in the paste for it explains all 3 parables)
37 “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

I don’t think the bible can be any more clear. What is even more astounding is that even at the last moment, God being so loving, still gives us a chance to repent if we keep watch.

Revelations 16:15-16 (again)
15“Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon
n.
Did they measured distances in miles and tenths of miles in the first century? Don’t think so.

And by the way, a furlong is a measure of distance within imperial units and U.S. customary units, and is equal to 660 feet or 201.168 metres. There are eight furlongs in a mile.

and

The furlong was historically viewed as equivalent to the Roman stade (stadium), which in turn derived from the Greek system. For example the King James bible will use the term “furlong” in place of the Greek “stadion”, whereas modern translations will translate into miles in the main text and relate the (often very symbolic) original numbers in footnotes.

In the Roman system, there were 625 feet to the stade, eight stade to the mile, and three miles to the league. A league was considered to be the distance a man could walk in one hour, and the mile consisted of 1000 passus (5 feet, or double-step).

After the fall of Rome, Medieval Europe continued with the Roman system, which proceeded to “diversify” leading to serious complications in trade, taxation, etc. Around the turn of the century of 1300, England by decree standardized a long list of measures. Among the important units of distance and length at the time were foot, yard, rod, furlong and mile. The rod was 5½ yards (16½ feet), and the mile was eight furlongs, so the definition of the furlong became 40 rods and that of the mile became 5280 feet. (In other words, the reason the prime number 11 slipped into the English and subsequently the British and US systems was to accommodate the rod.)

per wikiality
 
Did they measured distances in miles and tenths of miles in the first century? Don’t think so.

And by the way, a furlong is a measure of distance within imperial units and U.S. customary units, and is equal to 660 feet or 201.168 metres. There are eight furlongs in a mile.

and

The furlong was historically viewed as equivalent to the Roman stade (stadium), which in turn derived from the Greek system. For example the King James bible will use the term “furlong” in place of the Greek “stadion”, whereas modern translations will translate into miles in the main text and relate the (often very symbolic) original numbers in footnotes.

In the Roman system, there were 625 feet to the stade, eight stade to the mile, and three miles to the league. A league was considered to be the distance a man could walk in one hour, and the mile consisted of 1000 passus (5 feet, or double-step).

After the fall of Rome, Medieval Europe continued with the Roman system, which proceeded to “diversify” leading to serious complications in trade, taxation, etc. Around the turn of the century of 1300, England by decree standardized a long list of measures. Among the important units of distance and length at the time were foot, yard, rod, furlong and mile. The rod was 5½ yards (16½ feet), and the mile was eight furlongs, so the definition of the furlong became 40 rods and that of the mile became 5280 feet. (In other words, the reason the prime number 11 slipped into the English and subsequently the British and US systems was to accommodate the rod.)

per wikiality
This information you supplied is based on both, Roman and Greek, units of measure. During biblical times, the Jewish unit of length for a foot was based on the king/ruler at the time. The average unit worked out to be about 5/6 (10 inches, or .8333 of a foot) of todays foot.

12" * (5/6) = or 12" * .8333 = 10"
12" / 10"= 1.2’
5280’ * 1.2 = 6336’ todays mileage adjusted to biblical feet
6336’ / 625’ = 10.137 furlongs per mile
1600 / 10/137 = 157.837 miles

It was not until years later that the unit of measures were adopted from the Roman and Greek tables.
 
The pre-tribulation raptureI

I would suggest the following for a beginning approach to the understanding of the Lord’s immortilization of believers:

2Thessalonians 2:1 is the “rapture” [the gathering] … the day of the Lord is the beginning of the tribulation period … two different events

These early believers were concerned that they had missed the Lord’s calling for them, or that it was not going to happen

Paul sets them straight and tells them that the day of the Lord had not yet begun … the necessary conditions were not present

The proof of the immortal pre-tribulation church is given in the following verses contained in Revelation [those in heaven with the Lord just before, during, and after the tribulation period]:

[Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:11-14; 20:4 (those on thrones)]

Revelation is a series of repeating visions of various themes given as the narrative moves forward … for example; 4:4; 5:5-10 and 19:1-9 is a view of the immortal church in heaven just before the Lord’s hour [time] of trial begins on the earth

Revelation is not structured in linear chronological time lapse … but in theme segments that cover the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days

The first trumpet sounding for the church is given in Revelation 1:10 [this is the Lord speaking to the church at its inception … the last trumpet sounding for the church is given in 1Corinthians 15:22-58 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 [this is the Lord calling the church out just before His coming hour [time] of trial and testing of an unbelieving world]

The removal of the 6 seals of the scroll must take place before the tribulation period can begin … each seal is a portent and preview of the prevalent conditions that will exist on the earth … not the events themselves which begin in chapter 8 … the 7th is a condition in heaven just before the tribulation begins on the earth

The 7 trumpet soundings of Revelation are judgment trumpets [not resurrections], the first 6 will sound in rapid fire sequence at the beginning of the tribulation setting the conditions of the period

7th trumpet of Revelation is a judgment trumpet and will sound toward the end of the period bringing the Lord’s judgment upon the beast and his followers culminating at Armageddon … this trumpet sounding is not a resurrection trumpet

The trumpet sounding just after the tribulation period in Matthew 24:29-31 is a gathering trumpet of surviving mortals who will enter and populate the Lord’s millennial kingdom on the earth … this gathering is not a resurrection

There will be those who will become believers during the tribulation period and martyred … these will have to wait until the end of the period for their resurrection [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13 15:2-3; 20:4 (those beheaded)]

Stephen
 
How did they lay it to rest, rewrite the Bible?

Where can you find this information regarding what the Catholic Church says? I cannot find anything pertaining to it. I’d be real interested in how they dismiss this.
CCC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

Footnote to CCC676
pford.stjohnsem.edu/ford/courses/church-in-consummation/docs/Millenarianism.pdf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top