Pre-Vatican 2 and Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus...

[Lucky7]

catholic.com/tracts/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

I think you misunderstood me. From what I can tell, this link is an explanation of grace in general. I was referring to any reference in LG regarding the need for non-Catholics to be in a state of grace without the benefits of the sacraments, etc (ie. in relation to the possibility of non-Catholics being saved). The latter was spoken about in the OP, but I do not see any reference to it in the VII document (unless, again, I just missed it). If the VII document is all I need to read because it sums up the Church’s teaching on this matter, then where is this part?

 

[Sirach2]

I think you misunderstood me. From what I can tell, this link is an explanation of grace in general. I was referring to any reference in LG regarding the need for non-Catholics to be in a state of grace without the benefits of the sacraments, etc (ie. in relation to the possibility of non-Catholics being saved). The latter was spoken about in the OP, but I do not see any reference to it in the VII document (unless, again, I just missed it). If the VII document is all I need to read because it sums up the Church’s teaching on this matter, then where is this part?

It’s there, Lucky7. You just don’t see it in the body of the document, but it can be found in the footnotes. These explain the basis from which the Council Fathers formulated this document, and point to traditional teachings. Thus, there is continuity. If we truly trusted that these many bishops did their homework when they met in their sessions to discern what the Holy Spirit would have them write, then the document would be sufficient for us at its face value. But for those who hold doubts or wish to do further study, I offer the root of their statement in LG-16.
Footnote (18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.*
Objection 1.
It would seem that Christ is not the Head of all men. For the head has no relation except to the members of its body. Now the unbaptized are nowise members of the Church which is the body of Christ., as it is written (Ephesians 1:23). Therefore Christ is not the Head of all men.

Reply to Objection 1. Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will…
(From Lg-16) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. (20*)
Footnote (20)

Reply to Objection 1. The sacraments of the New Law do seem to contain grace. For Report. 4 d.1 q.3 n.1] the Church seems expressly to signify this in one of its collects saying, “Let the sacraments, O Lord, perfect in us what they contain;” but that which, from the sacraments, is perfective of the soul which receives them is grace; therefore they contain this very thing, that is to say, grace.**
Therefore, just as those who attribute to the sacraments a real causality say that the character or the ornament in the soul is a per se disposition to grace, Oxon. ib. q.5 n.17] so I say that the sacrament or its reception is a per se proximate disposition to grace**, and for this reason it could rightly be defined by the saints and doctors with respect to this end or effect.
Baptism, therefore, being a sacrament, does provide God’s unremitting grace to strive to do His will. The soul receives continual “actual” graces flowing from the sacrament. If the soul cooperates with these to the best of one’s conscience, it may attain salvation. This would apply to those of other faiths who have been lawfully baptized.

There are several scriptures outside of Chapter II, that also help shed light on this passage, from #125-129. Might be good to read in your studies.

 

[Lormar]

I think you misunderstood me. From what I can tell, this link is an explanation of grace in general. I was referring to any reference in LG regarding the need for non-Catholics to be in a state of grace without the benefits of the sacraments, etc (ie. in relation to the possibility of non-Catholics being saved). The latter was spoken about in the OP, but I do not see any reference to it in the VII document (unless, again, I just missed it). If the VII document is all I need to read because it sums up the Church’s teaching on this matter, then where is this part?

I don’t know where it is. Perhaps it is implied. I was going to read Lumen Gentium again myself today to see if I had any questions.

I gave you that link because it states what we were talking about - the only way anyone gets to heaven is being in the state of Sanctifying Grace.

 

[Lormar]

It’s there, Lucky7. You just don’t see it in the body of the document, but it can be found in the footnotes. These explain the basis from which the Council Fathers formulated this document, and point to traditional teachings. Thus, there is continuity. If we truly trusted that these many bishops did their homework when they met in their sessions to discern what the Holy Spirit would have them write, then the document would be sufficient for us at its face value. But for those who hold doubts or wish to do further study, I offer the root of their statement in LG-16.
Footnote (18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.*
Objection 1.
It would seem that Christ is not the Head of all men. For the head has no relation except to the members of its body. Now the unbaptized are nowise members of the Church which is the body of Christ., as it is written (Ephesians 1:23). Therefore Christ is not the Head of all men.

Reply to Objection 1. Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things–first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will…
(From Lg-16) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. (20*)
Footnote (20)

Reply to Objection 1. The sacraments of the New Law do seem to contain grace. For Report. 4 d.1 q.3 n.1] the Church seems expressly to signify this in one of its collects saying, “Let the sacraments, O Lord, perfect in us what they contain;” but that which, from the sacraments, is perfective of the soul which receives them is grace; therefore they contain this very thing, that is to say, grace.**
Therefore, just as those who attribute to the sacraments a real causality say that the character or the ornament in the soul is a per se disposition to grace, Oxon. ib. q.5 n.17] so I say that the sacrament or its reception is a per se proximate** disposition to grace, and for this reason it could rightly be defined by the saints and doctors with respect to this end or effect.
Baptism, therefore, being a sacrament, does provide God’s unremitting grace to strive to do His will. The soul receives continual “actual” graces flowing from the sacrament. If the soul cooperates with these to the best of one’s conscience, it may attain salvation. This would apply to those of other faiths who have been lawfully baptized.

There are several scriptures outside of Chapter II, that also help shed light on this passage, from #125-129. Might be good to read in your studies.

I see you answered the question, Sirach.

 

[Sirach2]

I see you answered the question, Sirach.

Hopefully it will help. It is also good to remember that God is not bound only by the sacraments, which has been stated in many posts all over the forum. An example that comes to mind is the salvation of St. Dismas, the good thief who died next to Christ. We know he never had baptism, circumcision, membership in the Jewish faith, nothing … he was a pagan, and not a good one at that.

Yet he had sorrow for his sins and asked Jesus to be merciful to him and remember him in His Kingdom. Jesus assured him of his salvation. Some would label this as IMPLICIT “baptism of desire.” There are so many scriptures that attest to the mercy of God being salvific that it strikes me as rigorist stubbornness to refuse assent to the possibility that God can be God, independent of man’s logic.

Psalm 50:19. My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn."
And he doesn’t. His greatest attribute, as He stated to St. Faustina, is MERCY.

 

[Lormar]

Hopefully it will help. It is also good to remember that God is not bound only by the sacraments, which has been stated in many posts all over the forum. An example that comes to mind is the salvation of St. Dismas, the good thief who died next to Christ. We know he never had baptism, circumcision, membership in the Jewish faith, nothing … he was a pagan, and not a good one at that.

Yet he had sorrow for his sins and asked Jesus to be merciful to him and remember him in His Kingdom. Jesus assured him of his salvation. Some would label this as IMPLICIT “baptism of desire.” There are so many scriptures that attest to the mercy of God being salvific that it strikes me as rigorist stubbornness to refuse assent to the possibility that God can be God, independent of man’s logic.

Psalm 50:19. My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit; a heart contrite and humbled, O God, you will not spurn."
And he doesn’t. His greatest attribute, as He stated to St. Faustina, is MERCY.

Far be it for me to limit the Mercy of Our Lord. I am in no position to do that as I have many close to me who died under tragic circumstances - sudden and unprovided deaths. A few of them hadn’t darkened the doorway of a Catholic church in decades.

A curious thing that I have found over the years is that those who often fight for the rigorous interpretation of no salvation outside the Church (and I am NOT referring to anyone here - I am thinking specifically of people that I have known), that flies out the window when either a close relative or friend dies under not exactly favorable circumstances and, according to their rigorous interpretation, would look like the soul went straight to Hell. Then I would hear from these very same people about trusting in God’s Mercy.

Go figure.

 

[Sirach2]

Far be it for me to limit the Mercy of Our Lord. I am in no position to do that as I have many close to me who died under tragic circumstances - sudden and unprovided deaths. A few of them hadn’t darkened the doorway of a Catholic church in decades.

I posted this here some time ago and I agree that none of us knows how God may judge a soul at their death, but we always hope in His mercy. As Holy Mother Church teaches, we should never presume on a sinful life and having final repentence at death.

Quote: When I consider that all over the world, people pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for the dying, whether in convents or privately, and many others pray the Hail Mary – “pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death” . . .

. . . then through the Mystical Body of Christ, these prayers, along with the sacrament of the sick, will very often be instrumental in obtaining their full repentence, and trust in God’s mercy. Otherwise, why would Our Lord instruct us to pray the Chaplet for them?

I had a personal experience of this when my husband died. We had gone together to Harbor Freight (a man’s tool heaven, LOL) and I remained in the car waiting for him to return. Suddenly, I had an overpowering desire to pray the Chaplet for him, and I did so with intense fervor and concentration. Little did I realize that he was to die within 4 hours of that prayer, unexpectedly, and without the sacraments. Later, after much prayer, I received what I believe is God’s assurance that he attained salvation.

We just never know. So trust in the sacrament, **but also in the prayers of the faithful who intercede.

**You may find this entry of St. Faustina’s enlightening.
1698 l often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God’s mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious.

God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition, because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things.

Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! But horror! There are also souls who voluntarily and consciously reject and scorn this grace! Although a person is at the point of death, the merciful God gives the soul that interior vivid moment, so that if the soul is willing, it has the possibility of returning to God. But sometimes, the obduracy in souls is so great that consciously they choose hell; they [thus] make useless all the prayers that other souls offer to God for them and even the efforts of God Himself…

 

[Lormar]

That is so sad, Sirach, about your husband. We truly never know the hour or the day.

For the longest time I have prayed daily for all those who will die that day along with the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.

And you are right. Harbor Freight is a man’s tool heaven!

 

[Sirach2]

That is so sad, Sirach, about your husband. We truly never know the hour or the day.

For the longest time I have prayed daily for all those who will die that day along with the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.

Wonderful! Sometimes we forget, too, that the saints in heaven intercede for us also, unbeknown to us. St. Therese said her work would not be finished on earth, but that she would send an abundance of roses from heaven. St. Faustina and a host of others most assuredly join in this effort to rescue us. It’s called the “communion of saints.”

That doesn’t mean we should neglect doing everything we can to stay in grace, or to help others who live in indifference to salvation.

 

[Trebor135]

It makes a lot more sense if it means that, if you know that you are supposed to submit to the Roman Pontiff and you don’t (there are people like that - there are plenty of them on this forum in fact), then no matter how good a life you live, even if you, I don’t know, kneel and receive communion on the tongue or never wear pants if you are a women, you still can’t be saved.

Why do you think some people, even on CAF, “know” they should be Catholic but aren’t?

 

[Lucky7]

I see you answered the question, Sirach.

Honestly, I don’t see any of what you quoted in Lumen Gentium. Furthermore, I don’t see how those footnotes mention/explain the traditional teaching that it is difficult if not impossible for non-Catholics to remain in the state of grace (wrt salvation outside of the Church).

I’m not seeing how this is so clear.

 

[benjohnson]

A curious thing that I have found over the years is that those who often fight for the rigorous interpretation of no salvation outside the Church (…) and, according to their rigorous interpretation, would look like the soul went straight to Hell. Then I would hear from these very same people about trusting in God’s Mercy.

Go figure.

Being correct and strident in faith and being open to to God’s mercy are not incompatible, at least in Lutheran thought. The Law does condemn us utterly, and therefore leads us to the Gospel that saves us completely.

We would say that pointing out the strong Law is the right thing to do, because it leads to the Gospel.

 

[Sirach2]

Honestly, I don’t see any of what you quoted in Lumen Gentium. Furthermore, I don’t see how those footnotes mention/explain the traditional teaching that it is difficult if not impossible for non-Catholics to remain in the state of grace (wrt salvation outside of the Church).

I’m not seeing how this is so clear.

Sure, it may be difficult – it’s even difficult for a number of Catholics to remain in the state of grace. But to say that it is impossible, rare, practically nonexistent or any such terms, is to put God in a box and assume His mercy is negated by His justice.
Grace is mysterious to us since it is spiritual, unseen, and unknown how God chooses to redeem many of His creatures outside the faith. Let’s not limit Him and confine Him to our finite reasoning. His ways are far above ours.

I don’t know how better to answer you, so if you know a good pastor who can sit down and explain this to you, I would suggest you make an appointment.

A last suggestion would be to read the gospels, especially with regard to those outside the Jewish faith - repentent sinners, to whom Jesus declared that their faith had saved them. Countless examples! No baptism, no instruction to go see a Rabbi and become a Jew, no circumcision requirement … didn’t that drive the Jews crazy? No wonder they opposed Him.

 

[Lormar]

Honestly, I don’t see any of what you quoted in Lumen Gentium. Furthermore, I don’t see how those footnotes mention/explain the traditional teaching that it is difficult if not impossible for non-Catholics to remain in the state of grace (wrt salvation outside of the Church).

I’m not seeing how this is so clear.

If God is not bound by the sacraments of the Church, it is clear. Actual grace can produce the final grace of true repentance for sins which would put the soul in the state of Sanctifying Grace.

Everyone is given actual grace. And God gives sufficient grace to everyone to save their souls.

If I am wrong in what I have written, someone please correct me.

 

[Lucky7]

If God is not bound by the sacraments of the Church, it is clear. Actual grace can produce the final grace of true repentance for sins which would put the soul in the state of Sanctifying Grace.

Everyone is given actual grace. And God gives sufficient grace to everyone to save their souls.

If I am wrong in what I have written, someone please correct me.

Where does it state that God is not bound by His sacraments in the above writing? This may be true, but I don’t see this mentioned at all.

Also, it appears that the conclusion made by the poster related to the sacrament of baptism. What about those that were never baptized? They have never received the “initial” grace.

 

[Sirach2]

Where does it state that God is not bound by His sacraments in the above writing? This may be true, but I don’t see this mentioned at all.

Also, it appears that the conclusion made by the poster related to the sacrament of baptism.** What about those that were never baptized?** They have never received the “initial” grace.

In post 48, St. Thomas Aquinas clarified this with respect to the unbaptized. This formed the basis for LG-16 and is referenced in the Council’s footnotes. This document does not state that God is not bound by his sacraments, but it has been quoted throughout CAF on numerous occasions. Try a Forum google search which will probably p(name removed by moderator)oint the sources of this. I have the sense that nothing I have posted thus far is reaching you with understanding. Perhaps you aren’t ready for it yet.

 

[Lormar]

Where does it state that God is not bound by His sacraments in the above writing? This may be true, but I don’t see this mentioned at all.

Also, it appears that the conclusion made by the poster related to the sacrament of baptism. What about those that were never baptized? They have never received the “initial” grace.

It doesn’t specifically say it, but that is obviously what it means in section 16. At least that is how I read it.

 

[jwinch2]

If God is not bound by the sacraments of the Church, it is clear. Actual grace can produce the final grace of true repentance for sins which would put the soul in the state of Sanctifying Grace.

Everyone is given actual grace. And God gives sufficient grace to everyone to save their souls…

But they must accept it and cooperate with it. Christ died for all, but that does not mean all will accept this. Justification and salvation are not the same thing. God does not force people to accept His will, He allows freedom. Those who choose the path of sin, or violation of the natural law, without perfect contrition or the sacraments are not in a state of grace. Those who are not in a state of grace cannot perform truly meritorious acts. This has been consistently taught by the Church. The idea that everyone, or even most everyone, is just going to go ahead and cooperate with God and accept His will and therefore we can be reasonably assured of their salvation is not in keeping with Church teaching (I know you are not saying this). History tells us the exact opposite, and so did our Blessed Lord.

There is a reason that our Blessed Lord taught what he did regarding those who would be saved versus those who would not. He specifically taught the narrow versus the wide road. He specifically taught the sheep versus the goats. In addition, there is a reason that this doctrine was proclaimed in the manner that it was by the Fathers of the Church and taught that way in Sacred Councils. Do we really think, when the vast majority of people were able to reject Christ to His face when he walked the Earth in the very person of God, that somehow people are any less able to reject Him now 2000 years later? How many people in the Gospels walked away from Christ, rejected Him, or turned against Him after seeing the miracles He performed, hearing His teachings directly from His mouth, etc? Do we really think that those people who rejected God to His face still had a reasonable chance of being saved? Are we any different today, or are we even worse? At least in Christ’s time people believed in and accepted that there was a God and that sin was real. Do we really think people who go through their daily lives in today’s world without a thought or care about eternity, who God is, what His will is, etc. have a reasonable chance of being saved? Its not like these are new concepts. The 10 Commandments have been around for a while now. Everything I see in society, on the news, etc. tells me that if anything, people are moving further away from the seeking of God, not towards it.

God is indeed merciful, but He is also just. God does not love in the manner that we humans do, with our sentimentality and emotion. His love is different, and beyond our comprehension. He chose to say what He said and He chose to say things in the manner which He did, not us. He chose to link Himself with the Church and He chose to give us the sacraments, not us. Its not like we went to God and told Him how salvation should work or who would be saved. Not at all. He came to us. He told us how salvation should work, and who would be saved. That is the manner in which God willed for things to happen. It is not “putting God in a box” or “placing limits on His grace” when we take Him at His word or when we cooperate with the plan that He gave us. We would do well to remember that.

 

[Lormar]

Yes, I know that. I didn’t mean to say that everyone is saved just because they are given sufficient grace. They must cooperate with those graces given to them.

St. Therese of Lisieux said something once to a nun she was discussing God’s justice versus His mercy with. I don’t know what her exact words were, but she said something to the effect if you expect the justice of God, that is what you will get. I guess that goes hand in hand with what Our Lord said about the yardstick you use to measure will be that which will be used to measure you.

Again, I am not saying that everyone is saved, but it doesn’t hurt us or others to trust in His Mercy and to pray daily, along with sacrifices, for the salvation of souls.

To tell you the truth, the salvation of my own soul takes up a lot of my time. I do what I can for others, but I have my own work cut out for me.

 

[Lucky7]

BUT why isn’t what you and Jwinch saying clearly noted in Lumen Gentium??? This is my issue.

We shouldn’t have to look up footnotes and further explanations/cross-references.

Now, if I missed a clear reference to what the two of you are talking about, please post/quote it.