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ajpirc
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Is there a catechism that was written before Vatican II? I just want to see how the beliefs differed between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II.
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Montalo
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i do not know how universal it was, but The Baltimore Catechism was and is well loved
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Cristiano
Guest
Yo can look for the Aquinas Cathechism, the Catechism of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of St. Pius X. The beliefs “as in teachings of the Church” have not changed at all. Some disciplines now are different.
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Biedrik
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Beliefs haven’t changed. It’s still the same Church with the same fullness of truth.
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OldYoungGuy
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There is the Catechism of the Council of Trent, which unfortunately I don’t own yet, but I paged through it and was very surprised at the clarity, it is on my to get list.
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ajpirc
Guest
I’m a big fan of the Council of Trent. That one sounds like it’d be a pretty good catechism, especially with the reinforcement of doctrine from Trent because of the Reformation.
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Little_One0307
Guest
Hi,
I would recommend getting it. I read it hand in hand with the New CCC. I love the Roman Catechism. The langauge in there is superb. I get a sense of mystery and sacredness that I do not get when reading the New CCC. The language to me is more poetic and strikes and touches me deeper than the new one.
The explanations in there are really done very well and it is concise and brief, though without being to sparse in explanations. One thing that I am finding difficult with the new CCC is that there’s so many words and so many setences with so many commas and such that I get confused with what’s going on. But with this Catetchism it is well written and I don’t get lost.
And from my reading of the Roman Catechism it is helping me to learn and appreciate the New.
God Bless.
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UnusVeritas
Guest
The Baltimore Catechism was used in the US before Vatican II. Note- the beliefs didn’t change. The expression of the beliefs might have, and some of the disciplines did, but the fundamental core beliefs remained the same.
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ajpirc
Guest
This is what I meant by the differences in the beliefs: the expression of the beliefs. I wanted to compare the expression between the beliefs because it seems like Vatican II tried to interpret Catholic doctrine in a way that they softened the strict meanings of the doctrines to make us feel good.
Thanks, UnusVeritas, for pointing out what I meant to say.
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Cristiano
Guest
This is a very generic statement about a council with no details given. I think that a simple comparison of different Catechisms has nothing to do with VII. The Church does not do things for us to feel good, changes in the Church are for us to be good. I think that you are showing a lot of prejudice without having any direct knowledge of the documents of the Church either the different versions of the Catechism or the documents of VII.
The idea that quite a few people misintepreted what VII was about is probably correct and that is why we observed and still observe some aberrations in the daily life of the Church. However, going out with generic accusations before being informed can be quite counterproductive when we try to bring people back into the proper understandings of the Church teachings.
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Cider
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The Catechism of Pope Pius X, the Catechism of the Council of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism.
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UnusVeritas
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No problem. I’ve read some of the documents of V II, and it’s really not V II that did that. It was liberal bishops who would have taken ANY council and done that. The mentality that did it could have made Trent soft. Liberalism in the bishops is the problem, V II really didn’t do that. Since liberal bishops are trying to use V II as justification (sometimes straight up contradicting it though) V II is getting the blame where it shouldn’t.This is what I meant by the differences in the beliefs: the expression of the beliefs. I wanted to compare the expression between the beliefs because it seems like Vatican II tried to interpret Catholic doctrine in a way that they softened the strict meanings of the doctrines to make us feel good.
Thanks, UnusVeritas, for pointing out what I meant to say.
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ajpirc
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I understand. Thanks for the correction.
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laszlo
Guest
aloha.net/~mikesch/DouayCat.htm
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pindex.htm
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/ (this was for grade schools)
catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php (different format from Catechism)
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tindex.htm
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pindex.htm
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/ (this was for grade schools)
catecheticsonline.com/SourcesofDogma.php (different format from Catechism)
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ajpirc
Guest
Thank You!
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SouthpawLink
Guest
What’s new is that now, religious liberty is a God-given or civil “right” instead of something “tolerated” (in truth, error has no rights), it’s a-okay for the State to be separated from the Church (this idea was formerly condemned), heretics can receive Holy Communion without first abjuring their errors (it used to be sacrilegious), Catholics can take an active part in non-Catholic worship (it used to be a sin), and the Eastern Orthodox no longer need to convert in order to ensure their salvation. The Church has also stopped praying for the Jews’ conversion on Good Friday (in the new Mass, anyway).
These are some of the changes I can remember off the top of my head.
God bless!
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pataburd
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Analogous to a comparison between the conciliar documents themselves (Trent alongside Vatican II), or my reading the Douay-Rheims Bible alongside the New American.
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Little_One0307
Guest
Pataburd,Analogous to a comparison between the conciliar documents themselves (Trent alongside Vatican II), or my reading the Douay-Rheims Bible alongside the New American.
I do find the comparisons much helpful. It has strengthened my faith to see the same Old Truths and Magesteriusm intact all through the history of the Church.
I have never read the Vatican II documents, I just cannot bring myself to read them. Maybe a project for later.
God Bless.
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ajpirc
Guest
Is this from liberalism in the Church? Is there any attempt to bring back any of these rules?What’s new is that now, religious liberty is a God-given or civil “right” instead of something “tolerated” (in truth, error has no rights), it’s a-okay for the State to be separated from the Church (this idea was formerly condemned), heretics can receive Holy Communion without first abjuring their errors (it used to be sacrilegious), Catholics can take an active part in non-Catholic worship (it used to be a sin), and the Eastern Orthodox no longer need to convert in order to ensure their salvation. The Church has also stopped praying for the Jews’ conversion on Good Friday (in the new Mass, anyway).
These are some of the changes I can remember off the top of my head.
God bless!
I went to a Latin Mass this past Sunday and at the back of the missal, there was a guide to help look at your conscience before Confession. There were the 10 Commandments, the 7 Deadly Sins, etc. But what I found interesting was the 6 Commandments of the Church where the 6th commandment said, “Do not marry anyone who is not a Catholic nor get married outside of the Church…”
This is what makes me mad with the Church: She is not strict in the lives of Catholics.
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SouthpawLink
Guest
Well, I have to tread lightly, so I don’t break any rules. Therefore, I’ll let you do some research and find out for yourself.
Here are some links which substantiate my claims:A healthy laicism: “In current circumstances, by recalling the value for public and private life of certain ethical principles rooted in the great Christian heritage of Europe, and in particular of Italy, we commit no violation of the laicism of the State, rather we contribute to guaranteeing and promoting the dignity of the person and the common good of society. … without doubt, a healthy laicism of the state ensures that temporal matters are dealt with according to their own norms; to this, however, are associated ethical concerns that have their foundations in the very essence of man and that therefore, in the final analysis, can be traced back to the Creator” (Pope Benedict XVI).
catholicforum.com/forums/showthread.php?7715-Pope-on-ethical-principles-and-laicism-of-the-State
Compare with: seattlecatholic.com/a050615.html
The civil right of religious liberty: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651207_dignitatis-humanae_en.html
“Religious communities rightfully claim freedom in order that they may govern themselves according to their own norms, honor the Supreme Being in public worship … also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word” (n. 4).
A couple of articles which showcase the traditional doctrine: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/defense/rbity.htm
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/liberty.htm
Liturgical prayer with heretics permitted: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html (see par. 118 )
On the contrary, the old catechisms taught: “A Catholic sins against the faith by… taking part in non-Catholic worship.” And the 1917 Code taught that Catholics who worship with non-Catholics were suspect of heresy; see can. 2316; cf. 1258 ).
Heretics and schismatics can receive Holy Communion: “Catholic ministers may lawfully administer these same sacraments to other Christians not in full communion with the Catholic Church” (1983 Code of Canon Law, can. 844, §4).
On the contrary, the 1917 Code stated, “It is forbidden to administer the sacraments of the Church to heretics or schismatics, even though they err in good faith and ask for them, unless they have first renounced their errors and been reconciled with the Church” (can. 731 §2).
The Eastern Orthodox can be saved outside the Church: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html
The above document contradicts the Council of Florence quite directly (cf. Denz. 714).
Good Friday prayer for the Jews: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer_for_the_Jews#1970_prayer All that’s asked for is that they remain faithful to their covenant (no mention of conversion to Christ).
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