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TheMc
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Really. Nothing really matters before Vatican II?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Are you kidding me? You have to be joking.
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YoungTradCath
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Lucky.
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tskrobacz
Guest
The documents of Vatican II include the Bible, the CCC and the ascent of truth in the councils document. Obviously it includes the entire Church history. My point was those documents in total represent the current ascent of the truth and are the Catholic faith.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I can’t begin to cringe at how wrong this is. Vatican II did not promulgate a Bible, nor did it promulgate the CCC, nor did it promulgate even the CIC.
What you’re saying is that since Vatican II didn’t come up with, let’s say, the Nicene Creed, that it doesn’t “exist” anymore in the Catholic realm? Oh! But we still use it all the time.
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tskrobacz
Guest
If someone were to ask: what is the “official” teaching of the Catholic Church? My response is see: vatican.va/archive/index.htm
This archive is inclusive of the Bible, CCC, Canon Law, VII documents, etc…What is your response?
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YoungTradCath
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My response is that your response isn’t really a response to my response.
The Vatican website contains a massive repertoire of documents, not just those from Vatican II. Your statements basically say that nothing before Vatican II matters, which is utterly wrong, and that Vatican II thus contains and has formed the entirety of Church belief and teaching since. That is incomprehensibly incorrect.
Find me the Vatican II document called “Bible.” It doesn’t exist. Find me the Vatican II document called “Codex Iuris Canonici.” It doesn’t exist. I challenge you to even find me the Vatican II document called “Missale Romanum.” It doesn’t exist.
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tskrobacz
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Likewise, you have not not responded to my question. To what do you refer to when asked for a reference to the “official” teaching of the Catholic Church?
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YoungTradCath
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If I was asked that question, I would refer the person to the Catechism, the Code of Canon Law, and the teachings of the whole of the twenty-one ecumenical councils, and also a peppering of significant papal documents from throughout the ages.
I am simply dispelling your ridiculous assertion that Vatican II “contains all the answers” or something. Truth be told, most Catholic teaching was the same before Vatican II was ever dreamed of. It added to Catholic teaching, to be sure, but it did not wipe everything clean and start over. I mean, if it did, the documents of the Council wouldn’t have quoted from other documents of other councils, would it?
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tskrobacz
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The Catechism and Code of Canon Law (among other documents) are included in the Archive link I posted previously. In another thread it was affirmed that the link I shared is in fact the “now current” ascent of the truth presented by the Church.If I was asked that question, I would refer the person to the Catechism, the Code of Canon Law, and the teachings of the whole of the twenty-one ecumenical councils, and also a peppering of significant papal documents from throughout the ages.
I am simply dispelling your ridiculous assertion that Vatican II “contains all the answers” or something. Truth be told, most Catholic teaching was the same before Vatican II was ever dreamed of. It added to Catholic teaching, to be sure, but it did not wipe everything clean and start over. I mean, if it did, the documents of the Council wouldn’t have quoted from other documents of other councils, would it?
See: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8644195&postcount=28
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YoungTradCath
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Oh my, this is impossible…
Vatican II did not solemnly define every, or even most Church teaching. Take the Nicene Creed for example, the supreme definition of our faith. Show me where Vatican II defined that. Wait… it didn’t.
Vatican II didn’t magically erase everything before it. It added things to it, and did not change what already was.
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TheMc
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(I wonder if some of these misunderstandings are due to the major liturgical changes that followed Vatican II)
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YoungTradCath
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I think that’s certainly part of the greater problem, our identity, which is formed by catechesis. Rather, a lack of it.
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tskrobacz
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Actually the Nicene Creed is included by reference in the CCC which is part of the set of documents (including Vatican II) that I linked to earlier.
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TheMc
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:banghead: You’re missing the point.
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Marybeloved
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This must obviously be one of the grossest misrepresentations of Catholicism existing among modernists today! Vatican II itself says no such thing, yet people somehow buy the modernist propaganda spread by the church’s enemies- It’s not true at all, my friend. Perhaps you can show where in Vatican II it was declared that all previous councils stretching 2,000 years were replaced.
Church councils are not like parliaments or congress that can just repeal and replace laws- in case of Councils, previously taught (infallibly, by the way) truths. I have no idea why a Catholic who reads the catechism would say such a thing. The Pope and the church regularly cite all 19 councils of the church, and it is a matter of faith that infallibly taught truths are irreformable- unchangeable- or else the whole notion of infallibility becomes a great big joke of the CC.
Such a view as presented in your last statement above represents a view unformed by catholic faith.
Peace.
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tskrobacz
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My question stands…If the resulting documents from Vatican II (inclusive of the Bible, CCC, Canon Law, etc) are not the current Ascent of truth promulgated by the Catholic Church then what is? Surely there is one place we, as Catholics, can look to understand the present teachings of the Church?
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YoungTradCath
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Ok, cool. Does it matter that the CCC quotes it? It didn’t define it. Neither did Vatican II. You linking to it doesn’t make your argument work. The CCC isn’t a document of Vatican II. Somehow saying that Vatican II trumps everything the Church has ever said before is asinine. Vatican II contradicted nothing before it, and erased no teaching that came before it.
Your arguments are becoming futile. It is correct to acknowledge that Vatican II did proclaim some new Church teaching. How much, that is arguable. But to say that it swept everything else before it out the window has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard on these forums.
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TheMc
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Yes, they are current, but there’s so much more than is just defined in Vatican II. Yes, there’s a lot there, but it’s not everything.
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Cyclophile
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I’m not sure if there are any in your area, but there are still places where you can attend latin mass (using the 1962 missal) …I go this particular church: sacfssp.com/default.aspx
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