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DPMartin
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Could it be said:
Those who proclaim their own hearts, follow no precepts, and seek not statute.
Those who proclaim their own hearts, follow no precepts, and seek not statute.
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Barbkw
Guest
I said that a lot during my teens and early '20s, while high on drugs.
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davidv
Guest
Sounds a lot like what the Israelite were thinking:
How well did this work out for them?
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DPMartin
Guest
Barbkw
thanks for the reply
Considering the spirit in which you have made your statement, the residual effects might still be there. Such abuses do stunt maturity.
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Barbkw
Guest
I hear that a lot, so…it must be true.
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DPMartin
Guest
David
thanks for the reply
Not sure what you might be getting at. It was the Israelites that came to Samuel and requested a king to be over them. And as far as I can tell, the Lord wasn’t upset about the times when “In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes”…
1 Sam:8:5: And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6: But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
7: And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8: According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
9: Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
(it seems that the U.S. of A. was a lot like that, as in every man did what was right in his own eyes)
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Barbkw
Guest
Why is that statement profound - an epiphany of sorts - for you?
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davidv
Guest
So why did they ask for a king? They already knew what was required - obedience to God. Instead they, going their own way, thought their neighbors had a better idea. Didn’t Samual argue that they should not have a king?
So, what happened? As often is the case, God gives them what they asked for instead of what they needed, and in this case the result was the punishment of unjust kings that enslaved and misled the people as badly as the Egyptians had.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Sure, it could be said. It could also be said these people are lunatics.
If I “proclaim my own heart” does that mean I can drive on the left side of the road in the United States, because that’s what my heart (which is of British ancestry) tells me? The British do it - why not me? Because I’m gonna get myself killed, and kill other people, that’s why!
If I happened to survive, I doubt the “following my heart” defense would matter much in my trial (though it may get me sentenced to an insane asylum instead of a prison, but that didn’t work out so well for Jack Nicholson).
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valentino
Guest
DavidFilmer: God said "I will proclaimmy own Heart meaning My own laws.
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DavidFilmer
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I don’t actually think God said that (and Google doesn’t think so either).
But, even if, so what? Why not follow God’s laws? We (hopefully) follow driving laws in the country we happen to be driving in. Driving laws change from country to country (and from state to state), but God’s laws are for everyone and they are eternal.
Only a lunatic makes up his own driving laws (red light means go, drive 90 MPH on residential streets, disregard pedestrians in a crosswalk). His “heart” might tell him these things are OK, but I will snatch the keys out of his hand anytime I can, because he’s CRAZY.
Why should God’s laws matter LESS than driving laws?
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fhansen
Guest
The point of 1Sam 8 is that only God was meant to be the king of man. And that, whether man is his own king, or whether he sets up another man as king, he’s doing ‘what is right in his own eyes’. Therefore, whether man does what is truly right or whether he does wrong, he’s always doing wrong in a sense.
If he believes it’s right to follow the Law, as per the Pharisees, then his righteousness is his own, motivated by vanity. If he believes it’s right to kill his brother, then he’ll do that. This is so because the “problem of man” is that he’s been doing ‘what is right in his own eyes’ since the fall, i.e. he’s not motivated by the total faith, hope, and love He should have for God which is made possible only to the extent that God is king, that His Spirit dwells and rules within, the very thing man spurned at the fall. So long as man is his own arbiter of right and wrong-which is the way we’re born now- injustice and disorder prevail in the universe.
But if God has written the Law “on our hearts and in our minds”, becoming our God again, then precepts and statutes need not be sought, because then love can fulfill the Law, to paraphrase Rom 13:8, and this is the *only *way it can be fulfilled.
If he believes it’s right to follow the Law, as per the Pharisees, then his righteousness is his own, motivated by vanity. If he believes it’s right to kill his brother, then he’ll do that. This is so because the “problem of man” is that he’s been doing ‘what is right in his own eyes’ since the fall, i.e. he’s not motivated by the total faith, hope, and love He should have for God which is made possible only to the extent that God is king, that His Spirit dwells and rules within, the very thing man spurned at the fall. So long as man is his own arbiter of right and wrong-which is the way we’re born now- injustice and disorder prevail in the universe.
But if God has written the Law “on our hearts and in our minds”, becoming our God again, then precepts and statutes need not be sought, because then love can fulfill the Law, to paraphrase Rom 13:8, and this is the *only *way it can be fulfilled.
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DPMartin
Guest
Barbkw
thanks for the reply
If a man’s heart rules the man, then how is it that the Word of God rules the man? As in from within the man. We all know that the Word of God rules all creation. So this is not about ruling the man from out side the man. In enforcement of precept and statute from outside the man does not make the man. Though it may keep him in check from fulfilling what may be in his own heart that is otherwise.
But what is the Lord God’s heart? Could it be the commandment and the law. That Jesus fulfilled to the satisfaction of the Father’s Will for man? And since it is impossible to satisfy the Commandment/ Law, (one infraction of any part is an infraction of the whole law as Paul taught it) then how can this fulfillment be in us?
But yet the “new man” is made, our Lord Jesus Christ. Hence the “mind of Christ” the “Heart of Christ” even the Body of Christ complete and fulfilled, that now sits at the Right Hand of God the Father. Therefore the new man exists and is fulfilled to the satisfaction of the Father.
So if a man holds on to what is in his own heart “the old man”, then how can the new man take place, and be manifest? I mean Jesus is not an excuse to not respect the Heart of the Lord God nor the fulfillment thereof. He who holds on to his own heart “the old man” seeks the fulfillment thereof. And does not follow precept nor seeks statute.
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fhansen
Guest
I think this serves to highlight a difference between Catholic and certain Reformed theology. For Catholics, the New Covenant is a promise that God will create in us a new heart, that He will cause us to fulfill the Law, as we were always meant to, by indwelling us again, made possible by the reconciliation between man and God wrought on the cross at the Atonement. We follow Jesus in fulfilling the Law, rather than merely having His righteousness imputed to us. IOWs, Jesus rectifies the division between man and God that is the root cause of mans failure to be able to obey, or be just, in the first place.
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DPMartin
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David
thanks for the reply
No offence but it seems this may be headed off topic, I could be mistaken, but I don’t see where this relates to the original posting.
In consideration of your posting it may be necessary to note that through Moses the Lord God told them they would eventually have a King. And it seems this may be headed towards, what is, and what is not corruptible. As in: Men in charge- corruptible. The Lord God in charge- incorruptible.
If you notice, though Samuel was discontent with the request of the Israelites, he took the case before the Lord and did as the Lord said. And the Lord didn’t necessarily disagree with Samuel’s sentiment on the issue, but the Lord told Samuel He was about to change things.
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DPMartin
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DaivdFimer
thanks for the reply
Hence, maybe the need for the subject at hand.
If the Church “in general” doesn’t loss that “following my heart” mind set, how can it be expected that the world it is in, see otherwise.
maybe it should be said, extreme values of
thanks for the reply
LOL:
Hence, maybe the need for the subject at hand.
Your right, the contrast may be extreme, but what you are saying is true, this includes those who are of the Lord, but yet seem to see it distant, if you will, rather then within. I believe this is a knowledge and understanding necessary that we who seek the Lord would be more effective for the Kingdom of God.
If the Church “in general” doesn’t loss that “following my heart” mind set, how can it be expected that the world it is in, see otherwise.
maybe it should be said, extreme values of
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DPMartin
Guest
Fhansen
thanks for the reply
If what you say is true about the Catholic view, then it seems to me that today anyways, the Protestant and Catholic understanding is not that far apart at all, at lest in my experiences with both. But maybe (if I understand what your saying correctly) the difference might be that Protestants see access to that fulfillment now, and maybe some Catholics see it as later. Though I might not be correct in that presumption.
The Lord Jesus did say:
Mat:10:24: The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25: It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.
And this is not possible without that which is of the Lord Jesus that is complete fulfilled “perfect” within us. Hence the “New Man”. But truly it is a process to be proved therein, though the birthright is instantaneous (Baptism in the Holy Spirit), the day to day walk, is the growth therein, and the fruits thereof, in do season. And the Apostle Paul would not have preached the “New Man” nor the walk in Spirit, if it were not possible in the manifestation of the same within himself. Not of his own doing, but that the Fulfillment is accessible in Jesus Christ, and his pursuit thereof.
IOW’s without the Lord’s obedience fulfilled first, we have no ability to do the same even if it is in part. For because of Him the path is there.
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fhansen
Guest
The difference, as I see it, is that, in Catholic teaching, true perfection rather than an imputed one must be achieved prior to entrance into heaven. True perfection can be defined as the man who loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. In this way the Law is fulfilled, man finds his justice, sin is conquered, and we’re made capable of “seeing” God as we’re no longer attracted to lesser things than Him.
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DPMartin
Guest
thanks for the reply
The Lord Jesus liked to use the example of the seed to show the similitude of the Kingdom of God.
If you notice, the seed has the instruction therein for what is to become out of the ground. And the seed does not submit to the ground, what is in the ground yields to the instructions in the seed.
Consider the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, isn’t this the Spirit of God? Therefore His Presence. And where is God? Isn’t He in Heaven? That perfection has been fulfilled for you, and now God the Father has given you that perfection of completion, fulfillment, through His Beloved Son that it may grow in you. Which is available to anyone who turns to Jesus Christ, His Beloved Son .
Luke:17:20: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
IOW’s it has been fulfilled, all we must do is yield to it, in Spirit. The Presence thereof in us.
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fhansen
Guest
I agree. All we must do is yield to it-with all that implies. I think one difference may still be that, with Catholic teaching, “anyone who turns to Jesus Christ” may also turn away from Him again, just as Adam & Eve were free to turn from God in the beginning. Now while God knows definitively just who will and who will not persevere-(who are His and who are not His in the end)-we can’t know with that same 100% assurance. The Catholic virtue known as Hope is very great-it’s actually a confidence in Gods promises, and yet, while God loves us unconditionally, there’s still a condition on our salvation-we must come to love Him-along with as our neighbor-the same way.
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