SamoanaIf God is all knowing, then that means he created us knowing we are going to go to hell or heaven. If our souls are made with a destiny towards heaven or hell, then does that kind of take away from our free will? Why would God create people who were just gonna go to hell? or get aborted?
The thing that always freaked me out is that if God is timeless, then for him we are already in heaven or hell, even as we are here.If God is all knowing, then that means he created us knowing we are going to go to hell or heaven. If our souls are made with a destiny towards heaven or hell, then does that kind of take away from our free will? Why would God create people who were just gonna go to hell? or get aborted?
God is fair. Some people who recieve apparations at an early age may be really close to God but first because of a choice to be an extra holy person. Remember though, appartions are for us too and God uses the particular person to carry out a mission. In heaven “better seat” in my mind just means that the more we love God, the more we can enjoy the beatific vision, and an apparition does not make one Love God more. Blessed Mother Theresa is famous for not having any visions but she was one of the holiest people of the past century because of her choice. One more thing I would add is that to whom much is given, much is expected. So someone who is given a great oppurtunity to Love God in this life is expected to take advantage of it, therefore, they are held to a higher standard. As for the babies who die without Baptism, I believe they are in heaven. They are not at risk for hell which is a great gift, but they do not have the ability to do good works on this earth. Overall, I would say that God is just and he has planned out the world perfectly so that in the end, we will all see how God was fair and how his plan of salvation worked outI don’t know if unfair is the right word, but isn’t it unfair that some people get a ‘better seat’ in heaven than others if they didn’t get the same opportunities. There are Saints who get apparitions etc from an early age, and who will most likely end up with the highest place in heaven. Isn’t it unfair that an aborted baby will end up in limbo or a lower place in heaven? or someone who was on earth but didn’t have any experience of God have a lower place as opposed to someone who had ample opportunities to increase faith due to apparitions and boosts of faith?
don’t know if it’s a stupid question, or if it’s worded properly.
The famous atheist Antony Flew who became a theist pointed out forty years ago that foreknowledge does not imply causation. To know what we are going to do does not prevent us from choosing to do it. We can often predict what others are going to do without interfering with their free will.If God is all knowing, then that means he created us knowing we are going to go to hell or heaven.
We are not created with a destiny. We determine our own destiny. That is why we are created - to choose what to believe and how to live…If our souls are made with a destiny towards heaven or hell, then does that kind of take away from our free will?
Because freedom is our greatest gift. Without it we would be robots incapable of love.Why would God create people who were just gonna go to hell?
If an unborn child is aborted unnecessarily it is the fault of those who have it aborted but the child is compensated in heaven for having missed life on earth.Or get aborted?
Can you design a better one?The thing that always freaked me out is that if God is timeless, then for him we are already in heaven or hell, even as we are here.
But the solution to your problem is that this is the best possible world, and that creating only those people who would choose heaven would somehow lead to other, greater negative consequences. That’s the only way I see out of it, whether or not one can believe this is the best possible world is another question.
Hypothetically, God could only have created people he knew in advance would freely choose heaven. Having people roasting in hell for an eternity seems like an infinitely bad outcome.Can you design a better one?
If we are genuinely free we never lose our freedom even after we die. Omniscience does not imply knowledge of what is unknowable. It is impossible to know what we are going to choose in the future. We do not even know ourselves! Free will is the greatest mystery of all because we share in God’s power of creativity and self-determination. We and we alone are responsible for what we choose. That is why we exist: to decide what to believe and how to live.Hypothetically, God could only have created people he knew in advance would freely choose heaven.
That is a crude notion of hell. Genuine freedom implies the ability to choose to live for oneself no matter what the cost. Hell has its compensations…Having people roasting in hell for an eternity seems like an infinitely bad outcome.
How?God could have made the natural world much more friendlier (no diseases, no parasites, no natural disasters, no genetic deformities).
How do you propose to eliminate all disease and genetic disorders?I think it requires a lot of faith and hope to believe that ours is the best possible world. For example, I can’t think why removing suffering due to genetic disorders and diseases would make our world worse.
They torment themselves because their pride and selfishness are never satisfied. The more they have the more they want…It would also take a huge thing to overcome the evil of having conscious beings tormented for an eternity by their creator.
So you’re saying God doesn’t know what we will choose? What about the notion that God is timeless, if God is timeless then from his perspective we’ve already chosen.If we are genuinely free we never lose our freedom even after we die. Omniscience does not imply knowledge of what is unknowable. It is impossible to know what we are going to choose in the future. We do not even know ourselves! Free will is the greatest mystery of all because we share in God’s power of creativity and self-determination. We and we alone are responsible for what we choose. That is why we exist: to decide what to believe and how to live.
How?
Are you saying that God would not be able to prevent genetic mutations leading to various painful illnesses?How do you propose to eliminate all disease and genetic disorders?
No reason why hell has to be any more painful than earth for those people who live in mortal sin, non existence could also be an option.They torment themselves because their pride and selfishness are never satisfied. The more they have the more they want…
I thank God every day for that genetic deformity of Trisomy 21 or more commonly known as Down syndrome. My son, who just turned 4 yrs old, was born with Down syndrome. I was only 23 yrs old at the time. That little person, because he has a genetic disorder, has brought so much love and joy to every person he meets. You need to think before you speak flyingfish.God could have made the natural world much more friendlier (no diseases, no parasites, no natural disasters, no genetic deformities).
I think it requires a lot of faith and hope to believe that ours is the best possible world. For example, I can’t think why removing suffering due to genetic disorders and diseases would make our world worse.
Don’t you think your son would live a fuller life if he had the full use of human faculties? It’s all well and good that he makes others happy, but how do you think it is for him that he will never be able to live a full life?I thank God every day for that genetic deformity of Trisomy 21 or more commonly known as Down syndrome. My son, who just turned 4 yrs old, was born with Down syndrome. I was only 23 yrs old at the time. That little person, because he has a genetic disorder, has brought so much love and joy to every person he meets. You need to think before you speak flyingfish.
Let’s add the truly horrifying disease of “progeria” - premature aging. Those poor kids and their families are aware that these children will live only about ten years and then die of old age. Who would not remove this affliction, if they could?Don’t you think your son would live a fuller life if he had the full use of human faculties? It’s all well and good that he makes others happy, but how do you think it is for him that he will never be able to live a full life?
Are you honestly saying that if you could take away his disorder you wouldn’t because he brings joy to others?
What about people who have life threatening allergic reactions, what about people who have MS, what about people who are born with unsightly physical deformities, and so on? You don’t think they’d be better off healthy?
SamoanaI don’t know if unfair is the right word, but isn’t it unfair that some people get a ‘better seat’ in heaven than others if they didn’t get the same opportunities. There are Saints who get apparitions etc from an early age, and who will most likely end up with the highest place in heaven. Isn’t it unfair that an aborted baby will end up in limbo or a lower place in heaven? or someone who was on earth but didn’t have any experience of God have a lower place as opposed to someone who had ample opportunities to increase faith due to apparitions and boosts of faith?
don’t know if it’s a stupid question, or if it’s worded properly.
flyingfishThe thing that always freaked me out is that if God is timeless, then for him we are already in heaven or hell, even as we are here.
But the solution to your problem is that this is the best possible world, and that creating only those people who would choose heaven would somehow lead to other, greater negative consequences. That’s the only way I see out of it, whether or not one can believe this is the best possible world is another question.
Being timeless does not make the slightest difference to whether it make sense to believe that a free choice is knowable. Omniscience does not imply the power to know what cannot be known but the power to know that is within the scope of knowledge. If you claim to know that free choices are knowable you are in effect claiming to be infallible in that respect. How do you **know **that free choices are knowable? Do you know exactly what omniscience entails?If we are genuinely free we never lose our freedom even after we die. Omniscience does not imply knowledge of what is unknowable. It is impossible to know what we are going to choose in the future. We do not even know ourselves! Free will is the greatest mystery of all because we share in God’s power of creativity and self-determination. We and we alone are responsible for what we choose. That is why we exist: to decide what to believe and how to live.
Are you saying that God would not be able to prevent genetic mutations leading to various painful illnesses?How do you propose to eliminate all disease and genetic disorders?
God could prevent every single accident, disease and disaster by working miracles but it would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly universe. It would be obvious that He exists
and we would no longer be free to choose what to believe and how to live.
No reason why hell has to be any more painful than earth for those people who live in mortal sin, non existence could also be an option.They torment themselves because their pride and selfishness are never satisfied. The more they have the more they want…
God is a Creator not a Destroyer. While there is life there is hope…
If you’re timeless it means you don’t experience change. Being timeless means you can’t find something out. You either know it or you don’t.Being timeless does not make the slightest difference to whether it make sense to believe that a free choice is knowable. Omniscience does not imply the power to know what cannot be known but the power to know that is within the scope of knowledge. If you claim to know that free choices are knowable you are in effect claiming to be infallible in that respect. How do you **know **that free choices are knowable? Do you know exactly what omniscience entails?
You could make that kind of an argument in favor of ours being the best possible world. Still, why couldn’t God have made an orderly universe that didn’t have genetic defects, for instance? That would seem to place limits on God’s omnipotence.God could prevent every single accident, disease and disaster by working miracles but it would defeat the purpose of creating an orderly universe. It would be obvious that He exists
and we would no longer be free to choose what to believe and how to live.
I don’t know how I would feel about existing for an eternity, whether hell or heaven. I would definitely like to live longer than the 80 years I’m expected to. But frankly as I think about it, I don’t think I would want to exist forever without the option of suicide into nonexistence. Even in heaven. It seems scary to me.God is a Creator not a Destroyer. While there is life there is hope…
This is a really good answerThe thing that always freaked me out is that if God is timeless, then for him we are already in heaven or hell, even as we are here.
But the solution to your problem is that this is the best possible world, and that creating only those people who would choose heaven would somehow lead to other, greater negative consequences. That’s the only way I see out of it, whether or not one can believe this is the best possible world is another question.
We can only speculate on whether this is true or not. As far as we know God can allow an evil only if it will result in a greater good or prevent a greater evil from coming about. So if a person who would be an evil dictator was actualized then it would mean that without that evil dictator there would have been a greater evil or goodness would not be fulfilled.Hypothetically, God could only have created people he knew in advance would freely choose heaven. Having people roasting in hell for an eternity seems like an infinitely bad outcome.
its funny. I thought that you would have figured this out with your earlier comment. Simply, without these things not as many people would not come to choose God, or at least not all men. Or at least not as many men. These things can help to rely more on God and dispose us to grace (which we would not accept otherwise due to our fallen nature) thus making us better Christians.God could have made the natural world much more friendlier (no diseases, no parasites, no natural disasters, no genetic deformities).
hmmm, I have a bit of a genetic mishap that is going on myself (nothing too serious). Though I am hoping and praying to get better, I am glad for it. Through it i have gotten much more closer to God than i would have if I didn’t have it and I know that.I think it requires a lot of faith and hope to believe that ours is the best possible world. For example, I can’t think why removing suffering due to genetic disorders and diseases would make our world worse.
Its different when you realize free will is involved. Then its not so much people being tormented by their creator so much as people who ended up putting themselves in a position they knew full well was not the best (you cannot sin without knowing it) out of pride and envy.It would also take a huge thing to overcome the evil of having conscious beings tormented for an eternity by their creator.
This is only one possible explanation, and indeed it is frequently brought up.We can only speculate on whether this is true or not. As far as we know God can allow an evil only if it will result in a greater good or prevent a greater evil from coming about.
Not just your opinion, it is used all over the place. No wonder, since it sounds convincing, though it is erroneous. However, it is possible to create a world where everyone freely chooses God. The proof is mathematical. In a nutshell it goes like this.This might mean 2 things for Thomists (this is my personal opinion)
For the Molinist it means 2 things (again, opinion)
- It is impossible to create a world in which everyone would love God
- This may have been God’s purpose in creating the evil person and predestining who he predestines. He cannot predestine everyone to good for some reason, maybe because if this was done no one would reach the greatest good they could.
- Again, it is impossible to create a world in which everyone will love God
- There is no possible world which God could create in which a person, lets say Hitler, would not become an evil dictator, but God could affect surrounding conditions to bring a greater good out of this. Thus, God could do 2 things. Not create Hitler, or create him and use his evil to bring more people to good than there would have been if he had not existed. In the second case God will naturally try to convince Hitler to choose good as much as he could. Hitler would refuse, but this would not be God’s doing. Note that God cannot make Hitler choose Him, only convince him (due to free will).