Predestination/Calvinism

[benedictus2]

Hello Sufjon, I do not know the mind of God; nor do I know why He has set things up as they are. He ultimately chooses who will be saved or lost. His sovereign will, will be fulfilled. What He purposes will come to pass.

He sovereignly chose to save Noah and His family while damning the rest of the world. That said we have the great commission to fulfill. We are to preach the gospel to all men and let God do the rest.

This might give some insight into the purposes of God.

Romans 9:16-24 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Aaah yes, god is a schizophrenic psychopathic despot who decides to create human beings just for the sole purpose of torturing them forever and ever.

I find it really strange that you are quite comfortable with such a god.

Considering that there is a great possibility that you may be one of those he has already predestined to hell but you just don’t know it yet. But that’s okay isn’t it? After all, how can we know the mind of god?

 

[benedictus2]

Although GOD knows what decision we will make at any given time, HE does not make us make that decision. We are capable of making our own decisions … we have free will. We are predestined to make a choice ; to follow HIS will or to follow our own .

Very well said. Now if you can just explain that to Jericho please.

 

[JustaServant]

Some Calvinists teach the doctrine of “double-predestination.” This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also elects others to damnation. They tend to take certain scripture verses out of context to prove their ideas. This is simply not the God of the Bible, nor the God that I know.
God’s omniscience is one of His attributes. It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
The tragedy of Calvinism, is their rejection of a God of love. The God of many Calvinists HATES. He is a cold God who delights in sending people to Hell and punishing sinners. To many of the Calvinists I encountered, God is the unapproachable Deity who has a cold “relationship” with His creatures.
I met many a Reformed preacher who feared calling God “Abba” as Paul did. They delight in talking about the “God of hate”.
One Calvinist said to me once: “I wish I could learn to hate as God hates”. I am not saying ALL Calvinists are like this.
The reason I did not spend a long time among the Calvinists is because I clung to the God of love.
This was the God I knew from my youth.
The God the Catholic Church taught me to know.

 

[benidict]

hi Justaservant. just to be fair here. you must have gotten in with a very small fringe element within Calvinism. most do not teach a God of hate. very very few. WBC would be a good example of those that take Calvinism to its extreme. most Calvinist, are more evenhanded in their approach, but their logic, is flawed, as is their biblical backing for their views. Peace to you and yours.

 

[benedictus2]

Is this like a “garden of forking paths” kind of thing?

If so, just for the sake of discussion, let’s say I tell you that’s paradoxical. God knows what decision we will make, and since He knows what will happen and He’s never wrong, that means only one future is possible.

Nope, because it does not hinge on simply one action. If it does then I suppose you are right.

One thing you have not taken into account is the action of Grace.

Build that into your thinking and you might come up with a better argument.

But in order to uphold free will, we assume that you must have “the ability to choose otherwise.” This necessitates a situation where two futures are possible. The one where you follow His will, and the one where you follow your own.

As I said before, this is because you made the wrong assumption the first time, that there is one ever one action in a man’s life and the decision he makes there takes him to either heaven or hell. But you know that that is far from reality.

But if God knows which one you will choose, doesn’t that mean the other one is impossible?

Only if God is not in the Eternal Now.

I suppose you can put it this way, God knows what you will choose because, though to you it has not happened yet, to Him it already has.

For if God knows what choice you will make, even though you don’t know it yourself, it is impossible for you to make a choice if God knows you will not make it.

Huh, You already said that God knows the choice you made, so therefore you have already made a choice!

Therefore, if both paths were actually possible, God would not know exactly which one you will take. But that’s not consistent with God’s nature, is it?

If both paths were NOT possible then there would not be a choice to make. That you are saying that a choice was made means that choice was possible in the first place. That God gave two options, turn left of turn right means that God made the paths actually possible.

So we must uphold God’s ability to know the future, to be outside of time, to see eternity past and eternity future as equally present. So when you come to a fork in the road with two ways to go, God knows which one you will take and it is impossible for him to be wrong.

Let’s put it this way, if according to you, God is outside of time, then he is outside of this time that you have determined to be linear. And if not linear then God’s knowing is not necesarily that he knows the future but that he knows the “future” because for Him there is no such thing as past, present or future; only an Eternal Now.

Therefore, when you say it actually is possible for you to take either path (in order to uphold free will), are you not saying, in effect, “God could be right, but it’s equally possible for Him to be wrong”? This, too, is not consistent with God’s nature.

Nope. You’re drawing absurd conclusions in trying to be clever.

Your choice is not determined by God so therefore it is not a case of God being either wrong or right but rather God knowing rightly what you have chosen.

I think it goes something like that. I’m playing devil’s advocate,

And you are advocating for the devil quite well. I can hear him distinctly in your post. He does not make sense either but people follow him still. What was it Jesus said? The devil is the father of lies.

 

[benedictus2]

I’ve flogged this one to death on this forum but on the night my father died he appeared in my room. He started with an apology for his years of cruelty (summed up by himself literaly as “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you!”), we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this almighty, terrifying scream and then disappeared.

I think it was him, and I believe he’s in hell.

However during the discussion he once blurted out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right (incidentally I was an atheist at the time - this was 1979). He replied, “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here!”

But later he also admitted, “I was WILLING” (to do the things that damned him).

When I spoke about this to my old pastor, his comment was “I think he was willing. In fact, I’d say he was very willing”.

So predestination may well operate, but so does our choice.

As an anecdote, he died in Nundah, which is a suburb of Brisbane. At the time I was living in Yeronga, another suburb.

Sometime around 2005/6 I was driving a cab a couple of nights a week. One night I happened to be in Nundah, and this brought to mind the above episode. Since there is some frustration associated with this, I prayed that if what happened that night was real, could I please have some sort of “sign” or confirmation. I got this sense I ought to know better than ask, but I did so.

Later that same night I was sitting on the Queen Street rank, when a bloke came up, weaving slightly from too much alcohol, hopped in and said, “Nundah!” I asked him where, and he said, “Just drive. I’ll tell you where to go.”

Off we went. I followed his instructions and ended up at the house directly opposite the unit where my father died. I even mentioned it to him, but I don’t think he found it edifying.

But that was the very same night I asked for a “Sign”. And I got it.

Now I had free will where I drove that night, every other cabbie and passenger who used the Queen Street rank that night used their own free will, and the bloke who wanted to go to the house directly opposite my father’s death unit also had free will. Yet somehow God managed to get it all to line up.

Free will? Predestination? Sheer co-incidence? You tell me, and we’ll both know.

That is not quite what predestination means.

Predestination (the Calvinistic double predestination) means that God from the beginning has already decreed who will be damned and who will be saved.

The problem with that is when one thinks that God is the one who created all these human beings. Therefore even before they were created, He has already determined that some He will cast into hell.

In short, God created people for the sole reason of damning them to hell.

Hardly jells with the God we know, the God who died an excruciating death on the cross that we might have eternal life.

 

[benedictus2]

Dear AngloCatholic: Thank you for the reply. Perhaps I am in fact making this harder than it needs to be, like you said. You mentioned that God knows the outcomes but we have free will. I can’t see those two things being other than at odds with one another.

They are only at odds if God overrides our free will to get the outcome. God knows the outcome but it was still us who came up with the outcome.

God is in the Eternal Now. In eternity, time is not linear (past, present, future). What we term as God seeing the future is actually being int he future, i.e. He sees us doing this act so therefore He know what has happened because for Him it has already happened.

Any discussion of predestination has to deal with the interplay between Grace and Free Will.

So far the posts have been fairly lopsided on the free will side but no one has mentioned Grace.

And most importantly, it has to be all tied in with God’s will for our salvation. God passionately desires our salvation.

 

[benedictus2]

Some Calvinists teach the doctrine of “double-predestination.” This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also elects others to damnation. They tend to take certain scripture verses out of context to prove their ideas. This is simply not the God of the Bible, nor the God that I know.
God’s omniscience is one of His attributes. It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
The tragedy of Calvinism, is their rejection of a God of love. The God of many Calvinists HATES. He is a cold God who delights in sending people to Hell and punishing sinners. To many of the Calvinists I encountered, God is the unapproachable Deity who has a cold “relationship” with His creatures.
I met many a Reformed preacher who feared calling God “Abba” as Paul did. They delight in talking about the “God of hate”.
One Calvinist said to me once: “I wish I could learn to hate as God hates”. I am not saying ALL Calvinists are like this.
The reason I did not spend a long time among the Calvinists is because I clung to the God of love.
This was the God I knew from my youth.
The God the Catholic Church taught me to know.

Very well said indeed

 

[benedictus2]

God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. that being said, i dont believe he predestines anyone to hell, or heaven.** God wishes that all men come to a knowledge of the truth, and receive salvation from him**. he hinders no man/woman. seek and ye shall find. knock, and the door shall be opened unto you. are we to say, that God is a liar? that some people knock, and seek, but dont receive these promises because God has already condemned them from eternity? how silly is this? i was raised Calvinist, and one of my biggest fears, was that i could just be fooling myself. because even if i believed in Jesus, and lived the Christian life, it could very well be in vain, because, God may have already damned me from eternity. i know i was not the only one who felt this way. Peace

Excellent! And that is the whole point. Before we talk of predestination we need to ask why God creates. What were we created for.

And the answer to that is we were created (and continues to be created) for Love, for an eternity of being in communion with Him.

If this is why God creates, then it stands to reason that He cannot predetermine from the beginning for some to be damned for the simple reason that it defeats His purpose for creation, He will be going against His very own Will.

 

[Sufjon]

good question Sufjon. yes i would be curious to know about Melchezidech who was not a Hebrew, who was a priest of the most high God, before, the nation of Israel was even conceived of. where did he get his knowledge? Interesting huh? maybe the legends surrounding the Zohar, are true after all! that would be amazing. peace to you and yours.

Hi Benedict - I’m glad to see you’re ok. I hope things have quieted down where you are. The last time there was a lot of action going on and I was worried about you.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[GaryTaylor]

I like your thinking.

First let me say this. This debate just off the top of my head dates minimal to 397 with Augustine of Hippo. He first wrote “Free Choice of the Will” at age 42 in 397. I believe it was upon first becoming Bishop of Hippo. By around his 60th birthday his writting, thus thinking had changed to a large degree. He then wrote on “Grace and Predestination”. So the thinking in this very area dates way back.

Anyway,

Christ died for all of us so that we live now not for ourselves but for the one who died for us.

At some point in conversion this truth becomes apparent. God placed you exactly where He wanted you to be. For He see’s the true conversion long before you are in fact aware of that moment. You may not want to accept this truth as truth. Not a new conflict for man either.

What came to mind this instant is Teresa of Avila. I can’t remember Her word for word quote. But the thinking was that we find it so easy to offend the Lord and so difficult to trust in the Lord and simply walk the path He placed before us. Yet the Saints come in and out of mind in general at this point. They are the example of total Trust in the Lord. And this continues today also.

God Bless, GT

 

[Sufjon]

Is this like a “garden of forking paths” kind of thing?

If so, just for the sake of discussion, let’s say I tell you that’s paradoxical. God knows what decision we will make, and since He knows what will happen and He’s never wrong, that means only one future is possible. But in order to uphold free will, we assume that you must have “the ability to choose otherwise.” This necessitates a situation where two futures are possible. The one where you follow His will, and the one where you follow your own.

But if God knows which one you will choose, doesn’t that mean the other one is impossible? For if God knows what choice you will make, even though you don’t know it yourself, it is impossible for you to make a choice if God knows you will not make it. Therefore, if both paths were actually possible, God would not know exactly which one you will take. But that’s not consistent with God’s nature, is it?

So we must uphold God’s ability to know the future, to be outside of time, to see eternity past and eternity future as equally present. So when you come to a fork in the road with two ways to go, God knows which one you will take and it is impossible for him to be wrong. Therefore, when you say it actually is possible for you to take either path (in order to uphold free will), are you not saying, in effect, “God could be right, but it’s equally possible for Him to be wrong”? This, too, is not consistent with God’s nature.

I think it goes something like that. I’m playing devil’s advocate, of course. Just trying to get things going. This is just one way of describing the conundrum, but it consists of affirming two things about God: -A- He knows the future, and -B- He can’t be wrong. How then do you preserve free will, insofar as free will requires that you have “the ability to do otherwise”?

Hi Cooterhein: I get what you are saying. I am seeing the same problem.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

Three simple questions.

Can a person find God on their own?

Can a person initiate a relationship with God?

On your best day what have you done that God should save you?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Three simple questions.

Can a person find God on their own?

Can a person initiate a relationship with God?

On your best day what have you done that God should save you?

Its not what I or anyone else has done, its what “YOU” have done that matters in your world. What have YOU done is the question for youself. That is what “you” must live with.

The fact that your sins lie on our heads, has only to do with the Lords Mercy on your Soul.

Of course you can initiate a relationship with the Lord. you haven’t yet?

 

[jericho777]

God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. that being said, i dont believe he predestines anyone to hell, or heaven. God wishes that all men come to a knowledge of the truth, and receive salvation from him. he hinders no man/woman. seek and ye shall find. knock, and the door shall be opened unto you. are we to say, that God is a liar?

So according to your reasoning God is truly unable to save anyone because a person has to seek and knock on their own. God has to just hope people will just do the right thing so they can be saved.

 

[jericho777]

Its not what I or anyone else has done, its what “YOU” have done that matters in your world. What have YOU done is the question for youself. That is what “you” must live with.

The fact that your sins lie on our heads, has only to do with the Lords Mercy on your Soul.

Of course you can initiate a relationship with the Lord. you haven’t yet?

It’s not about me. It’s about Him and what He has done for me.

So what have you done that God should consider you worthy of saving?

 

[Cruxis117]

It’s not about me. It’s about Him and what He has done for me.

So what have you done that God should consider you worthy of saving?

Well, by believing in Christ the Lord as the Savior and the Son of God, and in the Father and in the Holy Spirit (Romans 3:26) as well as committing good deeds in order to live out and complete this faith (James 2:22-24). That’s how I’ve always understood it, in order to be worthy of Salvation.

 

[jericho777]

Some Calvinists teach the doctrine of “double-predestination.” This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also elects others to damnation. They tend to take certain scripture verses out of context to prove their ideas. This is simply not the God of the Bible, nor the God that I know.
God’s omniscience is one of His attributes. It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
The tragedy of Calvinism, is their rejection of a God of love. The God of many Calvinists HATES. He is a cold God who delights in sending people to Hell and punishing sinners. To many of the Calvinists I encountered, God is the unapproachable Deity who has a cold “relationship” with His creatures.
I met many a Reformed preacher who feared calling God “Abba” as Paul did. They delight in talking about the “God of hate”.
One Calvinist said to me once: “I wish I could learn to hate as God hates”. I am not saying ALL Calvinists are like this.
The reason I did not spend a long time among the Calvinists is because I clung to the God of love.
This was the God I knew from my youth.
The God the Catholic Church taught me to know.

The tragedy is people who think they can do enough good works so God will consider them worthy of salvation.

You are denying scripture. WE all deserve hell but out of His love and mercy He chooses to save.

 

[JustaServant]

hi Justaservant. just to be fair here. you must have gotten in with a very small fringe element within Calvinism. most do not teach a God of hate. very very few. WBC would be a good example of those that take Calvinism to its extreme. most Calvinist, are more evenhanded in their approach, but their logic, is flawed, as is their biblical backing for their views. Peace to you and yours.

If you read (as I have) the writings of some of the mainstream Calvinists like R C Sproul and John MacArthur, that is exactly the message. They might bury it in theological language to make it sound acceptable, but its the same road.

 

[JustaServant]

The tragedy is people who think they can do enough good works so God will consider them worthy of salvation.

You are denying scripture. WE all deserve hell but out of His love and mercy He chooses to save.

Actually Catholics agree with certain aspects of what you would call Calvinism, we just do not take it to the lengths Calvinists have.
So let me ask: Does God hate sinners?