Predestination/Calvinism

[jericho777]

Well, by believing in Christ the Lord as the Savior and the Son of God, and in the Father and in the Holy Spirit (Romans 3:26) as well as committing good deeds in order to live out and complete this faith (James 2:22-24). That’s how I’ve always understood it, in order to be worthy of Salvation.

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

It is God who must first call and save us. Anything else is secondary to the equation. Our works only can reflect Gods’ grace and mercy toward us and in of themselves do not save us.

 

[elvisman]

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

It is God who must first call and save us. Anything else is secondary to the equation. Our works only can reflect Gods’ grace and mercy toward us and in of themselves do not save us.

God gives us the grace of initial salvation.
However - the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:
****Rom. 11:22, ****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-22, ****Matt. 7:21, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Matt. 7:19-23, ****Rev. 3:5, Rev.n 22:19

---

1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST cooperate with God in order to be saved and Jesus was CLEAR on that:

Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

**Picking up our cross daily to follow him **(Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)

Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)

Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)

**We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, **2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

 

[jericho777]

God gives us the grace of initial salvation.
However - the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:
****Rom. 11:22, ******Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-22, ****Matt. 7:21, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Matt. 7:19-23, ****Rev. 3:5, **Rev.n 22:19

---

1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST cooperate with God in order to be saved and Jesus was CLEAR on that:

Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

**Works **of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)

Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)

Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)

We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Hi elvis good to see you here!

Well I have a couple here that say otherwise.

Election
Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake.

1 Thes 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

Rom 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus1:1-3 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and at his appointed season he brought his word to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

If these are not enough I could come up with some more.

 

[jericho777]

God gives us the grace of initial salvation.
However - the Scriptures are adamantly clear that this salvation can be lost:
****Rom. 11:22, ******Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:20-22, ****Matt. 7:21, ****1 Cor. 9:27, ****1 Cor. 4:4, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Matt. 7:19-23, ****Rev. 3:5, **Rev.n 22:19

---

1 Cor. 3:9 tells us that as co-workers (Sunergos) with God, we cooperate with his grace - plain and simple. Simply believing in Christ makes you no better than the demons who also believe James 2:19. We MUST cooperate with God in order to be saved and Jesus was CLEAR on that:

Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)

Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)

**Works **of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)

Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)

Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)

Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)

We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

Predestination
Lk 22:22 For indeed the Son of Man goes on His way–His pre-destined way; yet alas for that man who is betraying Him!"

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 17:31 seeing that He has appointed a day on which, before long, He will judge the world in righteousness, through the instrumentality of a man whom He has pre-destined to this work, and has made the fact certain to every one by raising Him from the dead.

1 Chor 2:7 But in dealing with truths hitherto kept secret we speak of God’s wisdom–that hidden wisdom which, before the world began, God pre-destined, so that it should result in glory to us;
Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory.

Eph 1:5 For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ–such being His gracious will and pleasure

Eph 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Eph 2:10For we are God’s own handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for good works which He has pre-destined us to practise.

1 Thes 2:9 For God has not pre-destined us to meet His anger, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thes 2:13-14 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose youb to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages

1 Peter 1:20 He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for the sake of you who, through Him,

2 Peter 3:11 Since all these things are thus pre-destined to dissolution, what sort of men ought you to be found to be in all holy living and godly conduct,

Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed–men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation–ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It’s not about me. It’s about Him and what He has done for me.

So what have you done that God should consider you worthy of saving?

I originally mentioned this above…

Christ died for all of us so that we live now not for ourselves but for the one who died for us. Thats what I do, not what I have done. I’m still here, it doesn’t end till we are gone.

 

[JustaServant]

jericho777, would you please answer the question:
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

 

[jericho777]

I originally mentioned this above…

Christ died for all of us so that we live now not for ourselves but for the one who died for us. Thats what I do, not what I have done. I’m still here, it doesn’t end till we are gone.

I can do nothing that Christ would consider me worthy of saving. It is solely based on His grace and mercy toward me.

 

[jericho777]

jericho777, would you please answer the question:
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

He will eventually pour His wrath out on them.

 

[JustaServant]

He will eventually pour His wrath out on them.

That wasn’t what I asked.
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I can do nothing that Christ would consider me worthy of saving. It is solely based on His grace and mercy toward me.

Free Will is choice to live a life in and for Christ, or of this world.

I understand your thought process, yet its not really of issue. Whats of issue is the Souls who live in contradiction or contast to your thinking or my thinking for that matter.

Thus the intercession in Prayer. And again my thoughts from above that others sins who are on our heads.

The objective becomes greater than any one of us, for the simple reason Souls are lost because there is no-one to Pray for them. Regardless of ignorance, or choice in Free Will.

So when we say Predestination, I go along with predestination once your Soul is consecrated to the Lord. For “that” Soul in consecration there is predestination which you still have the free-will to lose, if you do not continue on the path our Lord has predestined for you. Yet there can be no predestination for those who in essense have an internal confict still within their self and act against the Lord? There is no lost Soul until God arrives and decides all Mercy is now done. That hasn’t happened as I know of?

Again lets think Augustine. Who was an admitted sinner, his mother attended Mass daily and prayed for his Soul for decades. In time a conversion came. The conversion still wasn’t complete until he came to terms with internal conflict. Once he conquers himself his Cross is no longer self, but the other sinners. Yet he can still chose through Free-Will to either follow his predestination or act off of inferior feelings in the struggle of good and evil and lose Grace?

You see this differently?

 

[Sufjon]

The tragedy is people who think they can do enough good works so God will consider them worthy of salvation.

You are denying scripture. WE all deserve hell but out of His love and mercy He chooses to save.

The tragedy is that people think they need to be saved. Another is believing that you deserve hell. The more I am learning about Christianity the sadder it looks. If I thought God was like the thing described in the Old Testament I should think I’d go off and do my own thing and leave the angry jealous God of Abraham to play sadistic games with His little tribe of Israel. I’m glad He chose them to be “chosen” rather than me. If I were born into a religion like this I would leave home. Fortunately, the mind God gave me tells me that the angry jealous God who is at odds with His creations is a construct of people’s minds and not actually a reflection on the God who made me. I know that He is not like this at all. It is sad that so many people are stuck with this view of Him though.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

That wasn’t what I asked.
Do you believe God hates the “non-elect”?

That I cannot say but he will hold them accountable.

Romans 9:19-21One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

[JustaServant]

That I cannot say but he will hold them accountable.

Romans 9:19-21One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Okay let me ask something similar.
Do you believe the “non-elect” are "predestined’ for Hell?

 

[jericho777]

Free Will is choice to live a life in and for Christ, or of this world.

I understand your thought process, yet its not really of issue. Whats of issue is the Souls who live in contradiction or contast to your thinking or my thinking for that matter.

Thus the intercession in Prayer. And again my thoughts from above that others sins who are on our heads.

The objective becomes greater than any one of us, for the simple reason Souls are lost because there is no-one to Pray for them. Regardless of ignorance, or choice in Free Will.

So when we say Predestination, I go along with predestination once your Soul is consecrated to the Lord. For “that” Soul in consecration there is predestination which you still have the free-will to lose, if you do not continue on the path our Lord has predestined for you. Yet there can be no predestination for those who in essense have an internal confict still within their self and act against the Lord? There is no lost Soul until God arrives and decides all Mercy is now done. That hasn’t happened as I know of?

Again lets think Augustine. Who was an admitted sinner, his mother attended Mass daily and prayed for his Soul for decades. In time a conversion came. The conversion still wasn’t complete until he came to terms with internal conflict. Once he conquers himself his Cross is no longer self, but the other sinners. Yet he can still chose through Free-Will to either follow his predestination or act off of inferior feelings in the struggle of good and evil and lose Grace?

You see this differently?

Hi Gary good questions, Our wills are bound by our nature. Unless God calls you, you have the nature of Adam and are incapable of seeking or pleasing God. We are dead in our sins and trespasses. When we have the nature of Christ the Holy Spirit seals and dwells in us enabling us to serve God. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His.

We are commanded by God to preach and share the gospel. Just as Paul preached in Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and*** all who were appointed for eternal life believed***. I believe scripture teaches those God has called He will not lose. Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory. I see it a the total work of God.

Because I believe in predestination it does not stop me from praying or sharing the good news. As Paul says he preached to the point of tears. You and I know the terrible end anyone who dies without Christ faces. We do not know who will or will not be saved but we must do the known will of God.

We are born lost but those God has called will be eventually saved. Jesus came to redeem that which was lost. The term lost means you belong to someone. You don’t redeem something that is not yours.

 

[jericho777]

The tragedy is that people think they need to be saved. Another is believing that you deserve hell. The more I am learning about Christianity the sadder it looks. If I thought God was like the thing described in the Old Testament I should think I’d go off and do my own thing and leave the angry jealous God of Abraham to play sadistic games with His little tribe of Israel. I’m glad He chose them to be “chosen” rather than me. If I were born into a religion like this I would leave home. Fortunately, the mind God gave me tells me that the angry jealous God who is at odds with His creations is a construct of people’s minds and not actually a reflection on the God who made me. I know that He is not like this at all. It is sad that so many people are stuck with this view of Him though.

Your friend
Sufjon

God is a jealous God in the sense He wants the best for us. Jesus took our sin and faced the wrath of the Father because He loved us . He reconciled us back to the Father so we could spend eternity with Him.

 

[jericho777]

Okay let me ask something similar.
Do you believe the “non-elect” are "predestined’ for Hell?

Yes

Rom 9:22-23 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

I’m not saying I like this and frankly I don’t really understand why. But this is pretty clear in its meaning.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hi Gary good questions, Our wills are bound by our nature. Unless God calls you, you have the nature of Adam and are incapable of seeking or pleasing God. We are dead in our sins and trespasses. When we have the nature of Christ the Holy Spirit seals and dwells in us enabling us to serve God. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His.

We are commanded by God to preach and share the gospel. Just as Paul preached in Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and*** all who were appointed for eternal life believed***. I believe scripture teaches those God has called He will not lose. Rom 8:29-30 For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has pre-destined He also has called; and those whom He has called He has also declared free from guilt; and those whom He has declared free from guilt He has also crowned with glory. I see it a the total work of God.

Because I believe in predestination it does not stop me from praying or sharing the good news. As Paul says he preached to the point of tears. You and I know the terrible end anyone who dies without Christ faces. We do not know who will or will not be saved but we must do the known will of God.

We are born lost but those God has called will be eventually saved. Jesus came to redeem that which was lost. The term lost means you belong to someone. You don’t redeem something that is not yours.

Thats right, well spoken.

God Bless, GT

 

[Sufjon]

God is a jealous God in the sense He wants the best for us. Jesus took our sin and faced the wrath of the Father because He loved us . He reconciled us back to the Father so we could spend eternity with Him.

So the Father took the form of a human and took the wrath of the Father, and blamed that on us too. Now it sounds like our captor has Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

So the Father took the form of a human and took the wrath of the Father, and blamed that on us too. Now it sounds like our captor has Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Your friend
Sufjon

Hello sufjon, I do not know if you are aware God is triune God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. He is three separate distinct yet equal persons who are one in being. It is a mystery of the bible. Jesus took on human form to be the last Adam to live without sin. He being without sin became the perfect sacrifice bearing the sins of the world to reconcile us back to the Father.

This side of eternity He is your savior the other side of eternity He is your judge. I noticed in another post #51 you believed that you did not have to be saved is that correct? Could you please tell us why you feel that way?

 

[cooterhein]

Hi Cooterhein: I get what you are saying. I am seeing the same problem.

Your friend
Sufjon

Hey Sufjon Lot of activity on this thread today, huh?

On the topic of free will, I don’t feel that I can uphold a libertarian kind of free will where people have “the ability to do otherwise.” I think that doing so puts me in a position where I would have to deny at least one attribute of God out of two that are non-negotiable for me. I do still want to uphold a certain kind of free will, though, in that God is non-coercive. But many people think that’s internally inconsistent, not really free will when all things are taken into account, etc. I’ll wait to see if anyone wants to address that directly, though.

Those are two issues that I’m a little curious about what others will say, too- first, whether the thing we call “free will” necessitates the “ability to do otherwise,” and second, whether election/predestination or divine determinism (in a sense) normally means God is coercive. (Why-oriented explanations would be great, too). For example, would some people want to say God predestines the elect for heaven, but in a way that is certainly non-coercive or in a way that could be described as coercive? Or what about double-predestination? Do you assume divine coercion if you hate it, or would you hate it even if it wasn’t? What about those who are more accepting of it?

More on the topic of the things you brought up, Sufjon, I think you’re asking excellent questions. I’ve asked very similar questions in the past, and I’ve talked to a number of Christians that have worked through similar things, too. I hope that a little exploration into these kinds of topics is something that you can enjoy to a certain extent, and I sincerely hope you don’t get frustrated with us. If there’s anything I can do that would help you, let me know and I’ll do what I can. I’m taking a little bit of a guess, but I’m hoping that the topic of coercion will be of some help. Let me know what you think.