Predestination/Calvinism

[benedictus2]

Because it appears to be an abusive and dysfunctional relationship.

Okay, it is clear you have no clue as to what Christianity is all about.

Why do you say it is abusive and dysfunctional?

Well, I am here to learn, and there is no shame in that, so feel free to tell me where I get things wrong.

I did. Check my post 27 to you. Also, read my rebuttal of cootertine on post 25.

Okay, tell me about the interplay between grace and free will.

I will but first I need to know that you understand first what the topic is about.
Do you know what we are discussing here? Are you aux fait with Calvinistic predestination?

How is that different than the anger and jealousy of a father who goes overboard in disciplining his children? I have two children, and I am not angry or jealous with either of them. How did I fare so much better than God?

Suppose your child is about to be hit but a truck and you jump in there so you can push her out of the way but in the doing so she ends up with a broken arm because of the fall.
Because she was too little, all she knows is that you pushed her and caused her to have a broken arm. You are a bad father for hurting her so.
Do you get what I am trying to say here?

I hope you are right.

I am. And that is not a boast or overconfidence. When you come to truly understand Christianity then you will know why I said that.
This might shed a bit more light for you on what we believe.

It seems the Old testament should be able to stand on it’s own. Are you telling me it doesn’t?

Yes, but it is written in a language of a particular time.

That is why we have exegesis.

This might help…

Click on the first link first even though this is actually part 2

1. youtube.com/watch?v=pP2InFa16D0&feature=related
2. youtube.com/watch?v=p8YTre3xqXg

 

[The_Old_Medic]

If you truly believe in predestination, then you do not need or require any form of religion. Either you will go to heaven, or your won’t, and there is absolutely nothing that you can do about it.

That is the big flaw in the entire theory. Your behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the ultimate decision, that was made long before you were even born. If you are predestined to go to heaven, you can murder people, rape, pillage, steal, bully and commit all other kinds of sins, and you WILL convert and ask for God’s forgiveness just in time to slide through the pearly gates.

And, if you are predestined to NOT go to heaven, you can spend your entire life doing your utmost to live according to the commandments, honoring God in every way possible, and yet you WILL be condemned to hell when you die.

Such a procedure makes a mockery out of everything that Jesus taught.

I grew up in a Church that taught that kind of crapola. They emphasized punishment, and how you had to literally fear the wrath of God. I heard my grandfather preach about hell so many times, I was literally scared to even go to sleep at night, for fear that i would die and go straight to hell.

My mother placed me in a Catholic boarding school in the middle of the 4th grade (it was the cheapest boarding school she could find). I was sent there on January 2, 1953, , and I converted almost immediately. I converted because my 4th grade teacher was the first person that was connected to religion that I had ever met that actually seemed to be happy. Her example led me to the church (I am the ONLY Catholic in my family in over 300 years). [Thank God for Sister Renilde Cade, OP.]

Calvinism literally flies in the face of Christ’s teachings. It supposes a vindictive God, one that plays tricks on his own people. That is NOT what Jesus taught at all. he taught of a God that loves us, wants us to succeed in loving him, and that is not just willing to forgive us our sins, but who actually WANTS to do that. That is why he sent his son to die for us, so that we could all have salvation.

 

[benidict]

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

It is God who must first call and save us. Anything else is secondary to the equation. Our works only can reflect Gods’ grace and mercy toward us and in of themselves do not save us.

exactly my friend. His mercy! and he has called all to repentance. the entire human race. the next step is for man to respond to God. to say that man has nothing to do with his own salvation is to go against almost the entire letter of James. many verses in the letters of st. paul. and many sayings of Jesus. while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. sound familiar? that was the mercy. it is now our responsibility to respond. its not just Catholics that believe this, its the majority even among protestants who believe this. they are known as arminians. Peace

 

[Sufjon]

PS. I also asked you in post 73 why you think it is a tragedy that people think they need to be saved. You have not answered that one.

Because I don’t think you need to be saved. I know that many people believe they do, and they are free to think that. I am free to see it as sad. Very sad. You can see it however you like. I am growing and living without any fear of God, or what might happen to me if I don’t repent.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Thousands years older does not make it true.

Good, then I guess I won’t see that argument tossed at Protestants anymore.

[/quote]
[/QUOTE]

 

[Sufjon]

Thousands years older does not make it true.

I believe I said I said it makes it hard to call new. The context was that you called it New Age. That sounds so silly to someone from my faith. It really does you know. That was my point.
benedictus2;7382007:

Its called paganism.

We believe in One God.

And no, your faith tradition does not match modern science at all. But I am sure you wish it does.

I guess that’s relative. It’s true, my faith hasn’t yet been able to come up with anything as convincing as a 6 day creation 6,000 years ago or Noah’s Ark, but we’ll keeping working on it.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Suppose your child is about to be hit but a truck and you jump in there so you can push her out of the way but in the doing so she ends up with a broken arm because of the fall.

Indeed.

And another example of a father who seemingly is hurting his children is if he takes them to be immunized. AND! Even holds his child down so the nurse can administer this odious (to the child, anyway) procedure.

And, here’s another one. I’ve seen many a good father take his son to the emergency room and watched, or participated in restraining his son, as they started an IV on this child. There is often a tearfilled moment when the child will meet his father’s eyes and communicate this message: “What? You’re in on this, Daddy! How could you!”

No words of explanation would be able to explain to this 2 year old, “Well, son, you have gastroenteritis, and this virus has wreaked havoc on your body. You are now badly dehydrated–that means you don’t have enough fluid in your body. We have to replace it and the best way is through a little catheter that’s inserted into your skin to replenish your fluids.”

Nope. You just have to look at your son and say, “Son, you can’t even know the depths of my love for you. This seemingly horrible procedure is really for your benefit. Really it is. Trust me.”

 

[benidict]

:

Well no. That is no what Benidict meant at all.

You obviously do not believe we have free will.

Salvation is a grace but it God created us with free will.

Unless you believe we are all robots.

thanks benedictus. i know, you know where im going with this. this is going to get good. peace

 

[Sufjon]

Because I don’t think you need to be saved. I know that many people believe they do, and they are free to think that. I am free to see it as sad. Very sad. You can see it however you like. I am growing and living without any fear of God, or what might happen to me if I don’t repent. I am not sorry for who I am, and I have no burden of having been born unworthy. I am not on my knees asking to be forgiven for being. You can do that and that’s fine if that’s what you want or feel you need to do. I think it is sad. That is what I meant.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Jesuit_Boy_63]

For many years I relied on the argument that while God knew what our actions and choices are, were, and will be, that knowledge did not interfere with His gift to us of our free will. We were absolutely free to make our own choices and He, not being bound by the constraints of time as we understand it, knew our choices ‘a priori’. I still am comfortable with this view and I see it as a facinating possibility of our comprehension of quantum physics (that opens up a whole new line of discussion).
However, I remember a conversation with a wise old Jesuit concerning our relationship to God and how we should approach Him. The good Father asked me to recall how Our Lord taught us to pray. He said to address God as OUR FATHER. Then he asked me what language did Our Lord use when speaking to the people of his time on Earth. Aramaic, I answered. Right, and what word in Aramaic was used? ABBA. Now, he smiled, ABBA is actually the familiar diminuitive form of the word for father and is best translated as ‘daddy’.
We are taught to approach God as loving children to our loving Father.
I gave some thought to this and in addition to realizing the wonderful implications of actually being the loved child of a loving Father I saw something else that applied to the discussion at hand. If we take for granted that God does exist and that He is as our Lord and Saviour taught us, then it naturally follows that as a loving Father He could not arbitrarilly condenm untold millions of His beloved children to eternal damnation because they simply were not part of the ‘elect’ and were lost no matter what they did or how they lived. Such action would be contrary to the Nature of God Who we were taught to love by Our Lord Himself, being one Person of this Triune God.
To my knowledge, the only ‘god’ in history who fits this description was Molloch who demanded child sacrifice.
Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to conclude that calvinists and their ilk actually worship the pagan ‘god’ Molloch. It seems to be a strong argument that we should pray for them to turn away from this false belief and return to the worship of our loving Father, our Daddy who gives us His unconditional love.
One more thought on this subject, our late Holy Father John Paul II said in a widely quoted address regarding what should we think about what happens after we die struck me as providing blazing insight into something that if we think it through to its conclusion should be seen obvious. The Holy Father said, “Because our Holy Mother the Church tells us so we must believe that there is a hell. We are not, however, required to believe that there is anyone in it!”

 

[benidict]

So according to your reasoning God is truly unable to save anyone because a person has to seek and knock on their own. God has to just hope people will just do the right thing so they can be saved.

Jericho, Jericho, Jericho. i shall be kind to you. you are aware that a Catholic and a Calvinist like yourself, have different view on salvation itself? i do not believe i am saved my friend. i do not believe you are saved. biblically, we are redeemed. with the Death of Christ on the cross, the entire world was redeemed. even creation itself. Christ opened the way for us to walk the path that leads to salvation. it is our responsibility to take it. i think we must go by what the aposle paul said. we are redeemed, and we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. i could buy a weight lifting set my friend, but if i never utilize it, i will never reap the benefits of having it. its the same thing with God. he offers us the way to salvation, but if we dont walk the path, partake of the grace he freely gives, if we do not cooperate with his plan, then whos fault is it? certainly not Gods. he gave us the opportunity. we do have free will and a choice. are you married? could you have forced your spouse to love you? if they didnt have the free will to choose, then its not love. its something twisted, and wrong. Peace

 

[Sufjon]

Okay, it is clear you have no clue as to what Christianity is all about. Suppose your child is about to be hit but a truck and you jump in there so you can push her out of the way but in the doing so she ends up with a broken arm because of the fall.Because she was too little, all she knows is that you pushed her and caused her to have a broken arm. You are a bad father for hurting her so.
Do you get what I am trying to say here?

Thanks - I’m glad you used that analogy. Yes, I get what you are saying. Injuring your child while trying to save her from an oncoming vehicle is not likened tossing your child into hell forever. In one instance you are saving her, in the other you are inflicting a final injury, from which the intent is not to save. Tossing your child into hell saves your child from nothing. It is more like drowning your child in the bathtub.

 

[Sufjon]

Suppose your child is about to be hit but a truck and you jump in there so you can push her out of the way but in the doing so she ends up with a broken arm because of the fall.
Because she was too little, all she knows is that you pushed her and caused her to have a broken arm. You are a bad father for hurting her so.
Do you get what I am trying to say here?

Thanks - I’m glad you used that analogy. Yes, I get what you are saying. Injuring your child while trying to save her from an oncoming vehicle is not likened tossing your child into hell forever. In one instance you are saving her, in the other you are inflicting a final injury, from which the intent is not to save. Tossing your child into hell saves your child from nothing. It is more like drowning your child in the bathtub.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[elvisman]

Predestination
Lk 22:22
Acts 13:48
Acts 17:31
1 Chor 2:7
Rom 8:29-30
Eph 1:5
Eph 1:11
Eph 2:
1 Thes 2:9
2 Thes 2:13-14
Heb 1:2
1 Peter 1:20
2 Peter 3:11
Jude 1:4

**Your folly lies in your total lack of understanding of eternity. **

**First of all, using plain and simple logic, total predestination is a false doctrine based solely on the instructions of Jesus to spread the gospel message around the world and to Baptize all in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19-20). Using your logic (and Calvin’s), spreading the Gospel message is completely pointless. Those who are predestined don’**t need to hear from you or me - they already have salvation.
Do you see how ridiculous this notion is?

Now, for a lesson on eternity. The language used in Scripture about predestination has to do with how God sees things. He doesn’t see things like you or me, who can only see what we’ve done in the past. He sees everything SIMULTANEOUSLY. Our entire span of time is like a finished painting. God sees every choice we’ve made and are going to make and that’s what the Scripture writers are referrng to.

That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t preordain SOME events and situations. What God DOESN’T do is coerce us to be faithful or to remain that way. That is totally up to us and here are some verses to prove what I’m saying, while keeping the CONTEXT of Scripture. Remember, no matter how hard the Calvinist tries - you cannot make Scripture contradict itself:
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

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Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

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2 Peter 2:20-22****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

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1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

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Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46
"He who endures to the end will be saved"

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Matthew 10:22
**All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. **

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2 Peter 3:17
**Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. **

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Revelation 3:5
**He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. **
**(God cannot blot out what was never there, Jericho)

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Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Again, Jericho - God CAN take away a person’s Heavenly rewards).

 

[elvisman]

Thanks - I’m glad you used that analogy. Yes, I get what you are saying. Injuring your child while trying to save her from an oncoming vehicle is not likened tossing your child into hell forever. In one instance you are saving her, in the other you are inflicting a final injury, from which the intent is not to save. Tossing your child into hell saves your child from nothing. It is more like drowning your child in the bathtub.

Your friend
Sufjon

**Not at all. **

**God doesn’t send us to hell, nor does he drag us into heaven against his will. Just like the Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son, he loves us so much that he allows us to decide for ourselves whether or not we wish to stay with him. **

**The Prodigal Son came back and repented but there are those who will not. This is not God’s doing - it is ours. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a classic example of the love of God and the complete falsehood that is of Calvinism. **

God doesn’t preordain any of us to hell. He allows us to choose or reject him.

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks - I’m glad you used that analogy. Yes, I get what you are saying. Injuring your child while trying to save her from an oncoming vehicle is not likened tossing your child into hell forever. In one instance you are saving her, in the other you are inflicting a final injury, from which the intent is not to save. Tossing your child into hell saves your child from nothing. It is more like drowning your child in the bathtub.

Your friend
Sufjon

Sufjon, God does not toss us into hell forever. Hell is for those who abhor the love of God.

As Christian apologist says, (paraphrasing), in the end, there are 2 types of people: those who say, Thy Will Be Done, and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done.”

 

[PRmerger]

Because I don’t think you need to be saved. I know that many people believe they do, and they are free to think that. I am free to see it as sad. Very sad. You can see it however you like. I am growing and living without any fear of God, or what might happen to me if I don’t repent.

Your friend
Sufjon

I think, Sufjon, the greatest testament to the fact that we need to be saved is looking at our world. Clearly, we are not how we were designed to be. :sad_yes:

 

[Sufjon]

I think, Sufjon, the greatest testament to the fact that we need to be saved is looking at our world. Clearly, we are not how we were designed to be. :sad_yes:

Hi PRMerger: Then I can only reason that the malfunction had to be inherent in the design, and the chance of it manifesting itself in the creation must have been accounted for by the Creator at the time of design, along with the probability of it being expressed over time as imperfect creations. I hope you don’t think I am arguing with you. The issue is that I truly honestly and don’t see how that could happen. This issue puzzles me terribly. My hope is to get an understanding. The reason I keep asking blunt questions is because I still don’t understand it.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Not at all.

God doesn’t send us to hell, nor does he drag us into heaven against his will. Just like the Father in the parable of the Prodigal Son, he loves us so much that he allows us to decide for ourselves whether or not we wish to stay with him.

The Prodigal Son came back and repented but there are those who will not. This is not God’s doing - it is ours. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a classic example of the love of God and the complete falsehood that is of Calvinism.

God doesn’t preordain any of us to hell. He allows us to choose or reject him.

Hi Elvisman: I have to say that what you are saying makes some sense. I am still stuck on how much free will we actually have though, and I think it relates back to the original question in the thread. I am wondering how much free will we actually have. Some people think none, some say a lot, and I just really can’t say, but the answer is key to a lot of things.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon, God does not toss us into hell forever. Hell is for those who abhor the love of God.

As Christian apologist says, (paraphrasing), in the end, there are 2 types of people: those who say, Thy Will Be Done, and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done.”

Hi PR Merger: That is an interesting perspective. I can’t say that I disagree. I will certainly think on that for a while. Thanks.

Your friend
Sufjon