Predestination/Calvinism

[SSTeacher]

Read Post #91

where I explained eternity to you and the false notion of predestination.
You fail to understand that words like "predestination" are used to explain God’s omniscience – *not *his pre–ordaining a situation.Exactly! If predestination the way it is taught in Calvinism is true, then I may as well go live the lifestyle I was living before my conversion to Catholicism. After all, if no matter what I do, is going to change anything, and I’m “saved” or damned regardless, then I may as well live it up, right? I may as well sleep with all the women I want, drink myself into oblivion, and in general just live like a dog. After all, I cannot be sure if God Chose me or not, so its really a **** shoot. I could still do everything the Gospel requires, and still go to hell. Or I could live like the devil and still go to heaven. After all, I bear no responsibility. It’s all up to God. and no, I’m not going back to the lifestyle I once led. There is no temptation to do such. Peace

Very succinctly put.

I once met an Orthodox priest who’d been brought up in a faith community whose members worshipped a Calvinist deity as they understood that deity to be but it wasn’t until he got into his teens that he realized that something was very wrong.

One Sunday morning in church an elder got up and gave a testimony which included the idea that, “if I were one of those people predestined for the flames of hell, I’d march happily off to damnation singing the Lord’s praises as I did so.” Father told me it frightened the life out of him but it was the beginning of his search for the true God.

What kind of deity would speak into existence a person made in the divine image predestined to live a life on earth that is devoid of any hope followed by eternal torment in the hereafter? When it comes to the practical application I doubt that anybody believes in Calvinism in its totality. It’s one thing to theorize about marching contentedly off to hell. The elder did that and it presumably didn’t spoil his appetite when he went to lunch afterward. But the young man who heard what the elder said considered the reality of being in such a position and was horrified.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[benidict]

Very succinctly put.

I once met an Orthodox priest who’d been brought up in a faith community whose members worshipped a Calvinist deity as they understood that deity to be but it wasn’t until he got into his teens that he realized that something was very wrong.

One Sunday morning in church an elder got up and gave a testimony which included the idea that, “if I were one of those people predestined for the flames of hell, I’d march happily off to damnation singing the Lord’s praises as I did so.” Father told me it frightened the life out of him but it was the beginning of his search for the true God.

What kind of deity would speak into existence a person made in the divine image predestined to live a life on earth that is devoid of any hope followed by eternal torment in the hereafter? When it comes to the practical application I doubt that anybody believes in Calvinism in its totality. It’s one thing to theorize about marching contentedly off to hell. The elder did that and it presumably didn’t spoil his appetite when he went to lunch afterward. But the young man who heard what the elder said considered the reality of being in such a position and was horrified.

Cordially,
Mick

thank you and yes! i can remember being raised in a strongly calvinistic Christian Reformed home. at about age 10 i started wondering if i was going to hell when i died. i was quite certain i was. talk about depression at an early age. lol! all the rules we had to keep that were not even in the bible, and they were far more than Catholicism puts on its adherents. all this talk of salvation is a free gift, and not merited, but you better work your tail off! youd better know your catechism! its no wonder i converted to the baptist when i was 16. that was not the brightest of moves either. still calvinistic. same old story different denomination. just believe, just say this prayer. just have faith. worked for awhile, until some real crisis points came, and what they were teaching was proven to be false. they could not answer some real questions about some real tough verses in the bible. followed by some personal crises i had. my best friend committing suicide, who was a staunch calvinist. who truly believed in what they taught. they couldnt, nor i, answer his deepest questions. it led to his death. just rambling, but i could go on. its a long story. long story short. this person appeared to me in a vision, and showed me the path i was to walk. it wasnt found in calvinism. the vision was proven to be true, and i have not wavered since. not through hunger, not through tough times, and now, not through war. Peace to you and yours.

 

[elvisman]

exactly! if predestination the way it is taught in calvinism is true, then i may as well go live the lifestyle i was living before my conversion to Catholicism. after all. if no matter what i do, is going to change anything, and im “saved” or damned reguardless. then i may as well live it up, right? i may as well sleep with all the women i want, drink myself into oblivion, and in general just live like a dog. after all, i cannot be sure if God Chose me or not, so its really a **** shoot. i could still do everything the Gospel requires, and still go to hell. or i could live like the devil and still go to heaven. after all, i bear no responsibility. its all up to God. and no, im not going back to the lifestyle i once led. there is no temptation to do such. peace

Yup - precisely why it is false.

If Calvinism is true - Jesus was a complete fool for telling the Apostles to evangelize. And he ain’t no fool!

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;7385599:

Very succinctly put.

I once met an Orthodox priest who’d been brought up in a faith community whose members worshipped a Calvinist deity as they understood that deity to be but it wasn’t until he got into his teens that he realized that something was very wrong.

One Sunday morning in church an elder got up and gave a testimony which included the idea that, “if I were one of those people predestined for the flames of hell, I’d march happily off to damnation singing the Lord’s praises as I did so.” Father told me it frightened the life out of him but it was the beginning of his search for the true God.

What kind of deity would speak into existence a person made in the divine image predestined to live a life on earth that is devoid of any hope followed by eternal torment in the hereafter? When it comes to the practical application I doubt that anybody believes in Calvinism in its totality

. It’s one thing to theorize about marching contentedly off to hell. The elder did that and it presumably didn’t spoil his appetite when he went to lunch afterward. But the young man who heard what the elder said considered the reality of being in such a position and was horrified.

Cordially,
Mick
:thumbsup:thank you and yes! i can remember being raised in a strongly calvinistic Christian Reformed home. at about age 10 i started wondering if i was going to hell when i died. i was quite certain i was. talk about depression at an early age. lol! all the rules we had to keep that were not even in the bible, and they were far more than Catholicism puts on its adherents. all this talk of salvation is a free gift, and not merited, but you better work your tail off! youd better know your catechism! its no wonder i converted to the baptist when i was 16. that was not the brightest of moves either. still calvinistic. same old story different denomination. just believe, just say this prayer. just have faith. worked for awhile, until some real crisis points came, and what they were teaching was proven to be false. they could not answer some real questions about some real tough verses in the bible. followed by some personal crises i had. my best friend committing suicide, who was a staunch calvinist. who truly believed in what they taught. they couldnt, nor i, answer his deepest questions. it led to his death. just rambling, but i could go on. its a long story. long story short. this person appeared to me in a vision, and showed me the path i was to walk. it wasnt found in calvinism. the vision was proven to be true, and i have not wavered since. not through hunger, not through tough times, and now, not through war. Peace to you and yours.

Your post serves as a reminder that ideas have consequences and that wayward ideas can have tragic consequences. Thank you very much for posting as you did.

Gratefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

benidict;7385102:

exactly! if predestination the way it is taught in calvinism is true, then i may as well go live the lifestyle i was living before my conversion to Catholicism. after all. if no matter what i do, is going to change anything, and im “saved” or damned reguardless. then i may as well live it up, right? i may as well sleep with all the women i want, drink myself into oblivion, and in general just live like a dog. after all, i cannot be sure if God Chose me or not, so its really a **** shoot. i could still do everything the Gospel requires, and still go to hell. or i could live like the devil and still go to heaven. after all, i bear no responsibility. its all up to God. and no, im not going back to the lifestyle i once led. there is no temptation to do such. peace

Yup - precisely why it is false.

If Calvinism is true - Jesus was a complete fool for telling the Apostles to evangelize. And he ain’t no fool!

I’m not entirely sure that Calvinists would accept your conclusion as a valid criticism of their belief system. I think they draw a distinction between predestination and fatalism.

Convivially,
Mick

 

[benidict]

I’m not entirely sure that Calvinists would accept your conclusion as a valid criticism of their belief system. I think they draw a distinction between predestination and fatalism.

Convivially,
Mick

and you would be correct my friend. i kind of typed this tongue and cheek. i also would not have calvinist, in my family, and calvinist, who are friends of mine praying as hard as they do for me, if they truly did believe this way. but believe it or not, i have met those on the extreme who think in pretty much this way. lol! Peace, and prayers for you and yours, and may you have a very blessed Christmas season.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh I’m sure, but I haven’t read the “exact” thinking" of Calvin with Predestination. My point has been through this thread, that Calvin like “all” his other thinking didn’t bring anything new to the table. He took Catholic thinking and added his twist to it which in all case’s I can see is clearly incorrect. Where has he “once” been right?

 

[elvisman]

I’m not entirely sure that Calvinists would accept your conclusion as a valid criticism of their belief system. I think they draw a distinction between predestination and fatalism.

Convivially,
Mick

Then let’s just address Jericho’s version of Calvinism - which does fall into that category.

**He has stated that God creates some for heaven and others for eternal damnation. Most Calvinists that I know personally believe this as well.

 

[jericho777]

Read Post #91 where I explained eternity to you and the false notion of predestination.
You fail to understand that words like "predestination" are used to explain God’s omniscience - *not *his pre-ordaining a situation.

Hi elvis, I don’t see it your way based on scripture. It is clear God chooses us not the other way around. He purposes us to be saved and then completes it in us. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. The footsteps of a righteous man are ordered by God.

He chose Jacob over Esau before they were born not based on how good they would be, but so Gods’ purpose of election would stand. Romans 9:11-13 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

You are missing that freewill is based on the nature we posses. There are two classes of people those with the mind of Christ and those with the carnal mind. Romans 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Paul believed in predestination yet he preached any way. We don’t know who God will save, we are to be faithful and preach. Not just anybody can be saved only those God has chosen. Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Why don’t you like God being able to choose who He wants to save anyway? Is it that you think He would make a mistake and not choose you or that you’ve worked really hard at being good and He owes it to you?

 

[Sufjon]

Krishna’s only vaguely familiar to me. I wasn’t aware of his claims to Godhood. Although- if we’re all just a part of God- would you say Jesus or Krishna or Rama were any more God than you or me?T

Richard Alpert is another name I immediately recognize- he was a character on Lost!

Hi Cooterhein: You bring up some very interesting possibilities. I am still going over some of it, but I of course get stuck because I don’t know the answers. I think the person who is born and can do no wrong (only good) would be more of a hellish scenario than a heavenly one. It reminds me of the X J Kennedy poem “Nothing in Heaven Functions as it Ought.” It describes hell as being perfect and machine-like and heaven being full of life and blunders, with Peter sitting on his bifocals and breaking them and so forth. It kind of sounds like some of what you were saying.

As for Krishna and Rama (or Ram), they were God in human form. Interesting point on whether Jesus, Krishna and Ram were any more God than we. I have often thought that perhaps the difference between them and us is that they knew who and what they were on a very deep level, and we just don’t know who we are at that level. We can know on an intellectual level, but that is not a very deep level of consciousness, I don’t think. For the most part I think they were different from us, but that’s above my pay grade to figure out.

The Richard Alpert I was talking about was a Harvard psychology professor back in the sixties. Now he calls himself Ram Das (loosely translated - Servant of God). Very interesting fellow.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

exactly! if predestination the way it is taught in calvinism is true, then i may as well go live the lifestyle i was living before my conversion to Catholicism. after all. if no matter what i do, is going to change anything, and im “saved” or damned reguardless. then i may as well live it up, right? i may as well sleep with all the women i want, drink myself into oblivion, and in general just live like a dog. after all, i cannot be sure if God Chose me or not, so its really a **** shoot. i could still do everything the Gospel requires, and still go to hell. or i could live like the devil and still go to heaven. after all, i bear no responsibility. its all up to God. and no, im not going back to the lifestyle i once led. there is no temptation to do such. peace

No you would not because you have the mind of Christ. You now have the Holy Spirit and the desire to follow God. Gods’ election of grace is unconditional. Remember those God loves He chastens. Hint when we start going off the line He corrects us.

If you think you can please God in the flesh than you are sadly mistaken as only those who have the nature of Christ can please Him. There are plenty of good clean living folks giving of themselves and resources fully who are going to hell. Why because they are not born again. They don’t have the mind of Christ.

Just as a parenthetical look at the Patriarchs in the OT and tell me why God would save them. They were BIG sinners. Because He called them and worked salvation in them. Rom 8:29-30For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Be safe my brother. I see your location.

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon;
Who would you rather have in your “corner” a person who chooses to be there or one who has no choice. To top it off you know those that would rather not be there in your “corner” with you.

Good questions fbl19. I suppose I would like to just be happy and self-sufficient in my own corner. I would like to think that if I had a big enough heart, I would be there for others who might not be so self-sufficient. I still have a lot to work on. For the most part, I think I am in other people’s corner when there is some benefit to me, and likewise they are in my corner when I am of some benefit to them. I don’t see myself or the people I know as being all that altruistic. I know why all my friends like me, and I am no better than them in that regard. I try to be a better person than that, but that’s a long, slow work in progress. The first step is admitting who ya are I suppose.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jericho777]

What kind of deity would speak into existence a person made in the divine image predestined to live a life on earth that is devoid of any hope followed by eternal torment in the hereafter? When it comes to the practical application I doubt that anybody believes in Calvinism in its totality. It’s one thing to theorize about marching contentedly off to hell. The elder did that and it presumably didn’t spoil his appetite when he went to lunch afterward. But the young man who heard what the elder said considered the reality of being in such a position and was horrified.

Cordially,
Mick

Let’s look at it this way. Do you blame God because there are people who will be eternally lost because they didn’t have the same opportunity to hear about Christ as you? Not everyone has the same measure of grace either. DO you blame God because there are people who live in communist countries and have miserable lives? Lastly do you think God owes anyone salvation?

 

[Sufjon]

Okay you completely missed the point again.

That response was in reply to this:

You asked for a reason for God’s anger and jealousy.

I said God’s anger and jealousy has to do with his passion for our good.

This is why I gave the analogy. Your understanding of it is slightly askew.

What I was trying to explain is that sometimes, ON THIS EARTH some evils are necessary in the sense that they are built into the nature of things.

The example I gave about the the child illustrates that. Better that she suffer a broken arm and few bruises than to be plastered to to the asphalt by a speeding truck.

In this analogy, being hit by the truck would constitute hell; the broken bones and bruises are the sufferings we need to endure so that we don’t end up in hell.

Wnat we sometimes see as God’s anger is really His passion for our good. God is good and to be united to Him we need to become good, therefore His seeming anger at our preponderance for evil.

Dear Benedicus: Have it as you will, but what you are saying doesn’t make any sense to me.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRMerger: I didn’t say that that was the only possibility. I said I could only reason that. Someone else may be able to reason something else, so I was careful to use the preface that ***I ***could only reason that.

This is curious. You’ve been shown that there is another possibility, yet you conclude that there is only one that appeals to you?

This is like seeing a glass of spilled milk and saying, “I can only reason that the cat did it.” Someone points out to you, “Actually, Martha left a note saying she did it.” And you are steadfastly still proclaiming, “Well, I can only reason that the cat did it.”

 

[PRmerger]

Let’s look at it this way. Do you blame God because there are people who will be eternally lost because they didn’t have the same opportunity to hear about Christ as you?

No on e is “eternally lost” because they didn’t have the same opportunity to hear about Christ as we did. This, again, is a monster god who condemns folks for rejecting someone they never even hear of.

Jesus is the only way to heaven, but He is not just the 33 year old carpenter born in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. Jesus is the Eternal Logos.

[BIBLEDRB]Jn 1:9[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 17:23[/BIBLEDRB]

DO you blame God because there are people who live in communist countries and have miserable lives?

No. That’s absurd.

Lastly do you think God owes anyone salvation?

God does not owe anyone anything. But he wills the salvation of all.

 

[Sufjon]

This is curious. You’ve been shown that there is another possibility, yet you conclude that there is only one that appeals to you?

This is like seeing a glass of spilled milk and saying, “I can only reason that the cat did it.” Someone points out to you, “Actually, Martha left a note saying she did it.” And you are steadfastly still proclaiming, “Well, I can only reason that the cat did it.”

Hi PRMerger: Perhaps the third option was mentioned and I missed it. If we were given free will to do either right or wrong, then even a being that is designed to do mostly right 99.9999999% of the time will still do a lot of evil over the course of a very long stretch of time like eternity. That means the likelihood of the unfortunate events in the Garden of Eden was known by God when He set the cosmos in motion, and left Adam and Eve only to act it out at some point. Either that or it took Him by surprise. I still only see the two possibilities. Either we are accidentally full of bad tendencies or we are intentionally full of the potential for evil. I think God either made it that way or He didn’t see it coming. I think the latter is unlikely, but I am open to any possibilities. Citing Free Will doesn’t cut it, because in giving free will, God would have known the exact mathematical probability, indeed the inevitability of our eventual failure to live up to our charter.

What is the third option? It is not free will. Free will falls under the “it was a set up” option.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[truid]

Aaah yes, god is a schizophrenic psychopathic despot who decides to create human beings just for the sole purpose of torturing them forever and ever.

I find it really strange that you are quite comfortable with such a god.

Considering that there is a great possibility that you may be one of those he has already predestined to hell but you just don’t know it yet. But that’s okay isn’t it? After all, how can we know the mind of god?

You sound angry. Apparently you disagree with what the Apostle Paul wrote (by inspiration) in Romans 9:16-24.

 

[PRmerger]

You sound angry.

No, truid. We Catholics on this thread are not angry. We just are professing our zeal for the Lord!

Apparently you disagree with what the Apostle Paul wrote (by inspiration) in Romans 9:16-24.

There is no orthodox Catholic here who disagrees with [BIBLEDRB]Romans 9:16-24[/BIBLEDRB]

For it was the CC which authorized, codified and preserved this ancient text and discerned it to be *theopneustos. *

 

[truid]

Some Calvinists teach the doctrine of “double-predestination.” This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also elects others to damnation. They tend to take certain scripture verses out of context to prove their ideas. This is simply not the God of the Bible, nor the God that I know.
God’s omniscience is one of His attributes. It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
The tragedy of Calvinism, is their rejection of a God of love. The God of many Calvinists HATES. He is a cold God who delights in sending people to Hell and punishing sinners. To many of the Calvinists I encountered, God is the unapproachable Deity who has a cold “relationship” with His creatures.
I met many a Reformed preacher who feared calling God “Abba” as Paul did. They delight in talking about the “God of hate”.
One Calvinist said to me once: “I wish I could learn to hate as God hates”. I am not saying ALL Calvinists are like this.
The reason I did not spend a long time among the Calvinists is because I clung to the God of love.
This was the God I knew from my youth.
The God the Catholic Church taught me to know.

Oh brother! I consider myself a 5-point Calvinist. The five points being T.U.L.I.P. I don’t know if God predestines ALL people for either heaven or hell. To me, that is a bit too simplistic. But, I do know that God predestines some people to accomplish His will (not that He needs people to accomplish His will, but we are blessed that He includes us at all in His will).

Look at the story of Pharaoh. Do Catholics weep for Pharaoh and shake their fists at God because God hardened Pharaoh’s heart and sent the plagues to destroy Pharaoh’s kingdom and to top it off God killed the first born son’s of Egypt, including Pharaoh’s own son? Doesn’t sound fair does it? And yet, God did it.

Now, you want to talk about love? Yes, God is love. God knows exactly who will accept His gift of salvation and who will not. Therefore, I submit that God focuses His attention on those who He knows will accept His gift and He calls these people His elect. If God has always known who were His and who were not, why should we be angry at God? And why be angry at a doctrine which simply attempts to explain this?