Predestination/Calvinism

[PRmerger]

Not so the gulf was fixed between the righteous and the sinners. There was no lack of peace and joy with father Abraham. Show me where the rich man had any hope.

There is no verse that says anything about the rich man having hope. (He did, however, have compassion for his brothers, something no one in hell has.)

At any rate, the fact that we have no verse which shows this was “fixed” or that “the rich man had any hope” limns my original point: we simply cannot say who is in hell.

 

[jericho777]

There is no verse that says anything about the rich man having hope. (He did, however, have compassion for his brothers, something no one in hell has.)

At any rate, the fact that we have no verse which shows this was “fixed” or that “the rich man had any hope” limns my original point: we simply cannot say who is in hell.

How do you know no one in hell has compassion? He didn’t want his brothers to go there.
The scripture says he was where he was because he was in violation of the law and prophets. That’s the opposite of Abraham’s bosom. v28 says it was a place of torment not purification. Torment is punishment. Research hell and you will see it is a place of torment.

 

[benidict]

Yes but you are relying on God’s mercy alone to deliver the unborn by His sovereign grace. It is therefore His choice wetther or not they will be saved.

By the context presented in scripture Pharaoh’s end is eternal destruction.

ahh! we have a very good hope indeed my friend. for did not Jesus say, “let the children come unto me. for such is the kingdom of God.” if Calvinism were true my friend, then we would have cause for concern. because even if a child died in innocence. they would still be subject to Gods pre-determination for their soul. and if he had not determined that this one would not be in his kingdom??? thats not to nice to contemplate. Peace

 

[PRmerger]

How do you know no one in hell has compassion?

Because compassion is a derivative of love; love is a derivative of God. Thus, that which is derivative of God cannot exist in hell.

He didn’t want his brothers to go there.

Exactly.

The scripture says he was where he was because he was in violation of the law and prophets. That’s the opposite of Abraham’s bosom. v28 says it was a place of torment not purification. Torment is punishment. Research hell and you will see it is a place of torment.

No doubt it is a place of torment. It is a place of discomfort. So is purgatory.

 

[elvisman]

Those who have the Spirit have the the new nature. They belong to God. Those with the old nature cannot say yes to God. And you can’t say yes unless God allows you to.

Jericho -
Please address the overwhelming Biblical evidence against you in posts 298 & 299.
**You keep running but you can’t hide from the truth of God . . .

 

[elvisman]

Yes but you are relying on God’s mercy alone to deliver the unborn by His sovereign grace. It is therefore His choice wetther or not they will be saved.

By the context presented in scripture Pharaoh’s end is eternal destruction.

To make it easier for you - I’m re-posting the text from post #298. I’m really curious to see how you can explain your way out of this. It also addresses your inability to differentiate between Redemption and Salvation - a commom Calvinist blunder:

**You simply do NOT understand Redemption and Salvation.

By his finished work on the cross - Jesus redeemed EVERYBODY who ever lived and ever WILL live.**

Redemption is NOT Salvation. Redemption simply means that we have all been paid for. the Greek word used in John 19:28 is Tetelestai - It IS FINISHED. It’s like getting your bottles redeemd for cash at the recycling center.

Salvation is offered to all but not all take the gift. 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL - but his will is not always done. We must cooperate with his will for it to be done in us. John 3:16 tells us that God LOVED the world so much that he sent his only son and and whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. GOD LOVED THE WORLD.
NOWHERE does it say that only those whom he chooses will have everlasting life. It says WHOEVER believes in his son.

**You’ve rejected all of the other Biblical evidence that smashes Calvinism to pieces. **How do you reconcile your beliefs with these 2 Biblical passages?

 

[jericho777]

ahh! we have a very good hope indeed my friend. for did not Jesus say, “let the children come unto me. for such is the kingdom of God.” if Calvinism were true my friend, then we would have cause for concern. because even if a child died in innocence. they would still be subject to Gods pre-determination for their soul. and if he had not determined that this one would not be in his kingdom??? thats not to nice to contemplate. Peace

Being a child was never a guarantee of heaven. Our sin nature begins at conception. By your definition their innocence is the means for eternal life apart from the righteousness of Christ and that is a false gospel. Your own religion does not guarantee eternal life for infants. They rely on God’s mercy which is then according to His prerogative. I fully trust God’s mercy apart from works.

 

[jericho777]

Because compassion is a derivative of love; love is a derivative of God. Thus, that which is derivative of God cannot exist in hell.

Exactly.

No doubt it is a place of torment. It is a place of discomfort. So is purgatory.

Torment is punitive not corrective. All the descriptions of hell in scripture say it is a place of torment.

 

[jericho777]

To make it easier for you - I’m re-posting the text from post #298. I’m really curious to see how you can explain your way out of this. It also addresses your inability to differentiate between Redemption and Salvation - a commom Calvinist blunder:

You simply do NOT understand Redemption and Salvation.

By his finished work on the cross - Jesus redeemed EVERYBODY who ever lived and ever WILL live.

Redemption is NOT Salvation. Redemption simply means that we have all been paid for. the Greek word used in John 19:28 is Tetelestai - It IS FINISHED. It’s like getting your bottles redeemd for cash at the recycling center.

Salvation is offered to all but not all take the gift. 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wills the salvation of ALL - but his will is not always done. We must cooperate with his will for it to be done in us. John 3:16 tells us that God LOVED the world so much that he sent his only son and and whoever believes in him shall have eternal life. GOD LOVED THE WORLD.
NOWHERE does it say that only those whom he chooses will have everlasting life. It says WHOEVER believes in his son.

**You’ve rejected all of the other Biblical evidence that smashes Calvinism to pieces. **How do you reconcile your beliefs with these 2 Biblical passages?

I have at least twice as many passages on my side and you ignore them.

 

[JustaServant]

Jericho777:
There is one question from my days among Calvinists I never had properly answered.
Do you beleive in elect and unelect infants? Reformed confessions certainly do.

Baptist Confession of 1689:

Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit,** yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father**, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.

Do you believe unelect infants go to Hell?

 

[PRmerger]

Torment is punitive not corrective.

Do you have a Scripture verse that says this, jon?

Many folks have experienced torment here on earth. I’m wondering if you think this is punishment from god starting early?

All the descriptions of hell in scripture say it is a place of torment.

No doubt.

 

[PJM]

=jericho777;7394099]You fail to recognize there are two wills present in the human condition. Rom 8:5-11 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful mane is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mindf is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Your freewill is dictated by the nature you posses. We do have freewill. Remember you can’t choose God unless He first reveals Himself to you. Mat 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,b the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

How did Peter know Jesus was God? It is only God who can reveal Himself to you and redeem you. We can’t find Him on our own.
God owes salvation to no man. Because He is Holy He cannot tolerate sin. Because He is just He must judge sin and a price must be paid. Because He is merciful He chooses to save some.

My dear friend: there is ZERO factual evidence of two independent wills. There is however much evience of humanities “freewill” supported by there minds and intellects. The fact that we are having this dailog gives ample evidence of this; but you are unable to prove your theology.

Secondly you continue to Ignore that God "is GOOD" A good God simply would be incapable of doing what you suggest. It is an impossibility for a JUST God to do such a thing as to actually Create people just so He can assign them to hell fo eternity. This would require a God COMPLETELY VOID of LOVE. That certainly is not OUR GOD!

While God “OWES” no man salvation; a JUST God DOES OWE EVERYONE; EVERY MAN the possibility of salvation and said God MUST [in an absolute sense] offer to every living soul; past, present and future; at LEAST the minimum amout of GRACE for that person to know, love, thank and serve God. BUT these graces are OFFERED NOT forced. Thus the application of our Spiritual Gifts come into play: WE, NOT God, decide for ourselves where we will spend Eternity! God ONLY affirms our personal choices.

In ORDER to be a “Christian” one must accept fully ACCEPT Christ and ALL of His Teachings. Other wise one can only be a fraud; a pretendor; one who creates his own set of beliefs. Either the Bible and Christ are REAL and TRUE; or the Bible has ZERO value in anybodies faith journey.

2 Tim.3 Verses 15 to 17 "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

**2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 **“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “ **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**1 Peter 1: 17 **“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Friend may Christ Grant YOU His Wisdom and HIS Understanding,

Holy Christms!
Pat

 

[jericho777]

Jericho777:
There is one question from my days among Calvinists I never had properly answered.
Do you beleive in elect and unelect infants? Reformed confessions certainly do.

Baptist Confession of 1689:

Do you believe unelect infants go to Hell?

I do not believe God has to save anyone adult or child. God is able to save whomever He chooses. It is according to His sovereign purposes that anyone is saved. I do not know if there are elect or unelect children. We are all conceived with original sin so I would then suppose there are children in hell because it was Adam’s choice to sin. Look at David’s sin with Bathsheba it caused the death of his new born son. Sin certainly reaches further than we can even imagine.

 

[JustaServant]

I do not believe God has to save anyone adult or child. God is able to save whomever He chooses. It is according to His sovereign purposes that anyone is saved. I do not know if there are elect or unelect children. We are all conceived with original sin so I would then suppose there are children in hell because it was Adam’s choice to sin. Look at David’s sin with Bathsheba it caused the death of his new born son. Sin certainly reaches further than we can even imagine.

Wow:nope:

 

[jericho777]

Do you have a Scripture verse that says this, jon?

Many folks have experienced torment here on earth. I’m wondering if you think this is punishment from god starting early?

No doubt.

Rev. 14:9-12 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Do not confuse suffering with torment. The devils purpose is torment to destroy people. God allows suffering to correct people, to reveal His glory and draw men to Him. Just as the paralytic man in Mat 9.

God is not starting peoples “punishment” early He is Savior this side of eternity. Remember people can suffer from self inflicted choices.

 

[PRmerger]

Rev. 14:9-12 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

This Scripture verse, while mentioning torment, states nothing at all about torment being punitive, not corrective.

Do not confuse suffering with torment.

Why are they not interchangeable?

The devils purpose is torment to destroy people.

Yes.

God allows suffering to correct people, to reveal His glory and draw men to Him. Just as the paralytic man in Mat 9.

Yes; and also to allow humanity to participate in the redemptive act salvation in Christ. We make up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering.

God is not starting peoples “punishment” early

Good! We are agreed on this.

He is Savior this side of eternity. Remember people can suffer from self inflicted choices.

Indeed.

 

[jericho777]

My dear friend: there is ZERO factual evidence of two independent wills. There is however much evience of humanities “freewill” supported by there minds and intellects. The fact that we are having this dailog gives ample evidence of this; but you are unable to prove your theology.

Secondly you continue to Ignore that God "is GOOD" A good God simply would be incapable of doing what you suggest. It is an impossibility for a JUST God to do such a thing as to actually Create people just so He can assign them to hell fo eternity. This would require a God COMPLETELY VOID of LOVE. That certainly is not OUR GOD!

While God “OWES” no man salvation; a JUST God DOES OWE EVERYONE; EVERY MAN the possibility of salvation and said God MUST [in an absolute sense] offer to every living soul; past, present and future; at LEAST the minimum amout of GRACE for that person to know, love, thank and serve God. BUT these graces are OFFERED NOT forced. Thus the application of our Spiritual Gifts come into play: WE, NOT God, decide for ourselves where we will spend Eternity! God ONLY affirms our personal choices.

In ORDER to be a “Christian” one must accept fully ACCEPT Christ and ALL of His Teachings. Other wise one can only be a fraud; a pretendor; one who creates his own set of beliefs. Either the Bible and Christ are REAL and TRUE; or the Bible has ZERO value in anybodies faith journey.

2 Tim.3 Verses 15 to 17 "and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

**2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 **“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “ **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

**1 Peter 1: 17 **“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Friend may Christ Grant YOU His Wisdom and HIS Understanding,

Holy Christms!
Pat

Romans 8 clearly states there are two natures present in humans.

Not all men have the same oppourtunity of salvation. Why did you choose to believe and others don’t? Obviously you were made differently with the ability to choose God and that is not fair. You were given something they were not.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I suggest that it is a mistake to presume of any human being still living in the flesh to be considered predestined whether for salvation or damnation.

It is not just a “fork in the road” kind of thing. It is more of a vast ramification of decisions and every possible permutation of decisions - with all their possible consequences, results and repercussions - which God has already foreseen but has not pushed on us. No one on earth…
except for the small, unknown handful - whose will is so united with God’s will; and who would never presume of their predestined salvation but, …no one ever hears from them, no one knows them…only God.

It is not the church militant that is predestined…and surely it is not the church triumphant for they have already entered into Heaven.

This only leaves us with the church suffering…the Poor souls in Purgatory…they are truly the predestined to enter Heaven - for sure!

The rest of us, …work out your salvation in fear and trembling…

 

[jericho777]

This Scripture verse, while mentioning torment, states nothing at all about torment being punitive, not corrective.

Why are they not interchangeable?

Yes.

Yes; and also to allow humanity to participate in the redemptive act salvation in Christ. We make up what is lacking in Christ’s suffering.

Good! We are agreed on this.

Indeed.

Here is a hint. he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. Wrath equals judgment and is punitive. Also the period of time is eternal punishment. There is no release.

I explained In my last post the difference between suffering and torment.

My dear lady there is nothing lacking in Christ’s suffering, it is complete in every way.

 

[PRmerger]

My dear lady there is nothing lacking in Christ’s suffering, it is complete in every way.

You are not familiar, then, with the Scripture verse that states the exact opposite?