Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

[KathleenGee]

True…it says nothing in the New Testament about Paul’s baptism. But surely Christ consecrating him in spirit and truth, and Paul’s great conversion…right there is the baptism of desire.

Considering his great mission to the Gentiles, and where and with whom he was at his conversion, it is understandable there is nothing noted about his baptism. Christ was baptized, the apostles all baptized…they are the witnesses of Christ on earth, and represent the spirit of the Church and its norms all coming from the will of God in Christ for us.

 

[Radyj]

True…it says nothing in the New Testament about Paul’s baptism. But surely Christ consecrating him in spirit and truth, and Paul’s great conversion…right there is the baptism of desire.

Considering his great mission to the Gentiles, and where and with whom he was at his conversion, it is understandable there is nothing noted about his baptism. Christ was baptized, the apostles all baptized…they are the witnesses of Christ on earth, and represent the spirit of the Church and its norms all coming from the will of God in Christ for us.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 9:18[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 22:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Christian_Unity]

If you want to continue down the path of *Sola Fide *

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

 

[ffg]

This thread lured me to join CAF. It’s been an interesting one.

As with every person on earth with the exception of 2, St. Augustine was a sinner when on earth. Keep that in mind when putting all of your eggs in one or two lines of his writing.

As I was reading I was waiting for someone to shout from the mountain tops ‘SIN’!

How do we know we have a Free Will? Because sin exists on earth.

Sin is the person’s Willful rejection of God.

Willful rejection - Free to choose and live forever with the consequences.

I purposefully didn’t put ‘live in Hell’ as I am not going to put words in God’s mouth or limit His Mercy. Perhaps when we pass we’ll learn of people who turned around after saying ‘no’ at the pearly gate before getting to the courthouse for the official ruling.

Thankfully, we’ve been told and shown by God personally and humanly how to live that makes choosing Him an enticing arrangement even though it is hard to comprehend His love while we live as sinners.

Good thing he built His Church to help us through our sinful lives.

 

[Radyj]

Pope Benedict said that Martin Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is correct if ‘faith is not opposed to charity.’ The Pope said this during a general audience in a speech on St Paul’s teaching on justification. (Vatican, November 2008)

justforcatholics.org/benedict_justification.htm

catholic.com/magazine/articles/justification-sola-fide

There is an article if you care to read it, Pope Benedict said “… Correct if not opposed to charity, to love” I’m not disagreeing with the Holy Father, with Trent or with the doctrine of the church. It is grace by which we are saved, it is by grace we draw breath. If you want to discuss OSAS we can. However I believe that one can deny the faith, that mortal sin can interrupt the relationship between man and God. Look through scripture, every time it talks about being judged, we will be judged by our works IE the Charity and Love. Without the faith in, grace of and relationship with God there can be no charity or love that is pleasing to God. But faith without is dead

 

[Christian_Unity]

This thread lured me to join CAF. It’s been an interesting one.

As with every person on earth with the exception of 2, St. Augustine was a sinner when on earth. Keep that in mind when putting all of your eggs in one or two lines of his writing.

As I was reading I was waiting for someone to shout from the mountain tops ‘SIN’!

How do we know we have a Free Will? Because sin exists on earth.

Sin is the person’s Willful rejection of God.

Willful rejection - Free to choose and live forever with the consequences.

I purposefully didn’t put ‘live in Hell’ as I am not going to put words in God’s mouth or limit His Mercy. Perhaps when we pass we’ll learn of people who turned around after saying ‘no’ at the pearly gate before getting to the courthouse for the official ruling.

Thankfully, we’ve been told and shown by God personally and humanly how to live that makes choosing Him an enticing arrangement even though it is hard to comprehend His love while we live as sinners.

Good thing he built His Church to help us through our sinful lives.

Welcome to CAF and this thread.

 

[Radyj]

This thread lured me to join CAF. It’s been an interesting one.

As with every person on earth with the exception of 2, St. Augustine was a sinner when on earth. Keep that in mind when putting all of your eggs in one or two lines of his writing.

As I was reading I was waiting for someone to shout from the mountain tops ‘SIN’!

How do we know we have a Free Will? Because sin exists on earth.

Sin is the person’s Willful rejection of God.

Willful rejection - Free to choose and live forever with the consequences.

I purposefully didn’t put ‘live in Hell’ as I am not going to put words in God’s mouth or limit His Mercy. Perhaps when we pass we’ll learn of people who turned around after saying ‘no’ at the pearly gate before getting to the courthouse for the official ruling.

Thankfully, we’ve been told and shown by God personally and humanly how to live that makes choosing Him an enticing arrangement even though it is hard to comprehend His love while we live as sinners.

Good thing he built His Church to help us through our sinful lives.

Welcome to CA, hope you have fun

 

[PRmerger]

Baptism is a means of grace; we receive grace when partaking in the sacrament of baptism by faith.

But one can be regenerated without baptism? Or without grace?

Here is the verse about the thief on the cross. From my reading of Scripture, I don’ think he was baptized, do you?

Luke 23:40-45

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

As Scripture is absolutely SILENT on whether the thief on the cross was baptized, we don’t know. Catholic tradition maintains that he was baptized by desire.

I don’t know what your tradition maintains.

Are you of the position that where Scripture is silent we are permitted to believe it occurred? Or are you of the position that where Scripture is silent we are forbidden to believe it occurred?

 

[Christian_Unity]

But one can be regenerated without baptism? Or without grace?

As Scripture is absolutely SILENT on whether the thief on the cross was baptized, we don’t know. Catholic tradition maintains that he was baptized by desire.

I don’t know what your tradition maintains.

Are you of the position that where Scripture is silent we are permitted to believe it occurred? Or are you of the position that where Scripture is silent we are forbidden to believe it occurred?

Baptism of desire is a Catholic distinctive since our view of baptism is different. Do you really think the thief on the cross was permitted to come down from the cross to be baptized?

 

[PRmerger]

Baptism of desire is a Catholic distinctive since our view of baptism is different. Do you really think the thief on the cross was permitted to come down from the cross to be baptized?

Why don’t you think he could have been baptized before he was convicted?

 

[PRmerger]

We have to assume that Cornelius was one of the elect of whom by sovereign grace, was regenerate for God’s purpose of revealing the inclusion of the Gentiles into the family of God.

So until I joined the CAFs I had never heard of Zwingli, Calvin, TULIP, regeneration, and the concept of the “elect”. I am still learning.

Regarding this Calvinist concept of the “elect”, as it applies to Cornelius…are you saying that there are a group of people who are not born depraved?

 

[Radyj]

Baptism of desire is a Catholic distinctive since our view of baptism is different. Do you really think the thief on the cross was permitted to come down from the cross to be baptized?

So I figured I’d take a moment to let you all know that I’m eating Sushi, and it is delicious. … St John the Baptist, his disciples, Jesus his apostles and disciples had been Ministering for 3 years, it is entirely possible that during that time the “good thief” could have been baptized, scripture on that point is silent.

Second point; baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” “flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind “flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”` St Alphonsus Liguori Moral theology book 6 nn 95-7

 

[Christian_Unity]

So until I joined the CAFs I had never heard of Zwingli, Calvin, TULIP, regeneration, and the concept of the “elect”. I am still learning.

Regarding this Calvinist concept of the “elect”, as it applies to Cornelius…are you saying that there are a group of people who are not born depraved?

We are all born equally sinful with the exception of Jesus. Sorry, Protestants believe that Mary rejoiced in God her savior because she knew she was sinful as revealed in the gospel of Luke. Total depravity has to do of our inability to come to Christ on our own free will. So, nobody is able to come to Christ on our own will power because we are all depraved, in enmity with God, and children of darkness because we fell with Adam’s one act of disobedience. Regeneration means born from above (born again) in which Catholics believe too (see John chapter 3).

And Mary said,

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation. - Luke 1

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3

 

[Christian_Unity]

So I figured I’d take a moment to let you all know that I’m eating Sushi, and it is delicious. … St John the Baptist, his disciples, Jesus his apostles and disciples had been Ministering for 3 years, it is entirely possible that during that time the “good thief” could have been baptized, scripture on that point is silent.

Too much wasabi with sushi will cloud your thinking. The thief wasn’t good; he was just a vessel of mercy, or an elect of God… to the praise of His glorious grace. I don’t think it is Catholic doctrine to believe that the thief was baptized with water.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think it is Catholic doctrine to believe that the thief was baptized with water.

You are correct, CU.

And it is not a Biblical doctrine to believe that the Good Thief was never baptized.

The Bible is silent on this.

 

[Radyj]

I put “good thief” in the little quotation marks for a reason, and yes he was elect of God, Christ told him so, and it is written in scripture.

Because I’m at work and tired I would like to explain how you define being elect, I really don’t want to go back through the whole post explaining the poorly contrived idea of John Calvin that some people were made to go to hell

There is no such thing as too much wasabi

 

[PRmerger]

We are all born equally sinful with the exception of Jesus.

So when does someone become “the elect”?

Sorry, Protestants believe that Mary rejoiced in God her savior because she knew she was sinful as revealed in the gospel of Luke.

Mary needed a savior because she was saved from Original Sin. Saved before falling into the pit, so to speak.

Total depravity has to do of our inability to come to Christ on our own free will.

Well, then, that is the Catholic teaching. We love because He first loved us.

So, nobody is able to come to Christ on our own will power because we are all depraved, in enmity with God, and children of darkness because we fell with Adam’s one act of disobedience. Regeneration means born from above (born again) in which Catholics believe too (see John chapter 3).

We are agreed, then.

So, back to Cornelius?

God chose him at some moment to become regenerated? That is your view? If so, then that is also the Catholic view.

 

[Christian_Unity]

You are correct, CU.

And it is not a Biblical doctrine to believe that the Good Thief was never baptized.

The Bible is silent on this.

First of all, there only a few Scriptures that have official Catholic interpretatation in which all Catholics have to believe. I am positive that most Catholic theologians and Catholic Answers Forum apologists would not try to say that the thief was baptized. Now you guys illustrate the very reason why Protestants believe in sola scriptura, because we let Scripture speak for itself.

Trying to make verses fit into our preconceived ideas and beliefs apart from good hermeneutical principles is called scripture twisting. The only reason why anyone would insist that the thief on the cross was baptized is based on a theological distinctive of the Catholic view on baptism. Scripture twisting is sin according to the Apostle Peter.

 

[Christian_Unity]

There is no such thing as too much wasabi

It’s common knowledge that too much wasabi distorts your thinking just like too much pot.

 

[PRmerger]

First of all, there only a few Scriptures that have official Catholic interpretatation in which all Catholics have to believe.

Correct.

The Church looks at the Word of God in its entirety.

I am positive that most Catholic theologians and Catholic Answers Forum apologists would not try to say that the thief was baptized

Indeed.

Not sure what your point is here.

I am saying that if you say that the Good Thief was never baptized, and you are a Sola Scriptura proponent, then you will have to put your money where your mouth is and offer a verse that says, “The Good Thief was not baptized”.

You cannot.

Therefore, your assertion that he was never baptized is un-bibilical.

Catholics say that we don’t know whether he was baptized or not (here, referring to water baptism in the Triune formula). But that he received a baptism of desire.