Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...

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IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.
Ah. Scripture interprets Scripture? That is a pillar of Protestantism?

Curious, this, given that this is an unbiblical tradition.

You can search Genesis through Revelation and you will never find any verse that proclaims that Scripture interprets Scripture.

You believe this, CU, because you heard a (fallible) man preach this, who heard a (fallible) man preach this…but no one ever read Scripture interprets Scripture in a single page of the Bible. :nope:
 
Ah. Scripture interprets Scripture? That is a pillar of Protestantism?

Curious, this, given that this is an unbiblical tradition.

You can search Genesis through Revelation and you will never find any verse that proclaims that Scripture interprets Scripture.

You believe this, CU, because you heard a (fallible) man preach this, who heard a (fallible) man preach this…but no one ever read Scripture interprets Scripture in a single page of the Bible. :nope:
Yet the Scripture does say that Jesus interpreted the Scripture, and taught His Apostles to do so. He explained everything to them, and they taught it to their successors, the bishops.
 
Yet the Scripture does say that Jesus interpreted the Scripture, and taught His Apostles to do so. He explained everything to them, and they taught it to their successors, the bishops.
I don’t think Scripture would support that belief and statement. Do you want to retract that statement?
 
I don’t think Scripture would support that belief and statement. Do you want to retract that statement?
Are you objecting to guanophore’s use of the word “everything”? :confused:

As in you are saying that Jesus did not explain, literally, “everything” to the Apostles?
 
Yet the Scripture does say that Jesus interpreted the Scripture, and taught His Apostles to do so. He explained everything to them, and they taught it to their successors, the bishops.
I don’t think Scripture would support that belief and statement. Do you want to retract that statement?
Are you objecting to guanophore’s use of the word “everything”? :confused:

As in you are saying that Jesus did not explain, literally, “everything” to the Apostles?
These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. - Gospel of John

Protestants believe the Helper is the Holy Spirit who dwells in all true believers, regardless of what church they attend. The Holy Spirit is not contained in the walls of the Catholic Church, nor is He dependent on the Catholic Church in His work of illuminating truth to the elect of God. It is the Holy Spirit who illuminates truth in the Scriptures to Christians.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
 
Without Holy Scripture, we would not know how to be reconciled to God.
Sure those who chose to listen would have the information without the bible. The bible didn’t exist when Jesus (God) told Peter he was the man to run the ship. Then send the followers out to preach.

Too bad we weren’t around to register for those conferences. That would have been wild.
 
This is how historic Protestants discern truth. This is taken from the Westminster Confession of Faith in regards to Scripture:

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.

III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.

IV. The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or Church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion the Church is finally to appeal unto them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God who have right unto, and interest in, the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.

X. The Supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.
What do you think of these guidelines and principle of Scripture interpretation?

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
 
What do you think of these guidelines and principle of Scripture interpretation?

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
I’m not the verse war kind of person. This guideline brought the following thoughts.

If scripture needs to be read and interpreted in the same light of spirit as the writer, I would say, thank God He created a Church that has guys that spend their lives doing just that, reading and interpreting for the last 1700+ years.

This sinner will trust that Church.
 
Originally Posted by **SteveVH **
Wrong. The Catholic Church possessed the fulness of truth before a word of the New Testament was written and was the means for reconciliation with God.
Help me understand official Catholic theology. Did the Catholic Church start with Peter?
The Catholic Church started with Christ. Christ built his Church on Peter. Christ instructed Peter and the Apostles. The Apostles ordained and instructed their successors, handing on the truth they had received from Christ. The Church flourished for nearly 400 years before it had an official sacred book. It was not dependent on the written word in order to teach and live out the Christian faith. That truth was and is contained in the very life of the Church.
 
The Catholic Church started with Christ. Christ built his Church on Peter. Christ instructed Peter and the Apostles. The Apostles ordained and instructed their successors, handing on the truth they had received from Christ. The Church flourished for nearly 400 years before it had an official sacred book. It was not dependent on the written word in order to teach and live out the Christian faith. That truth was and is contained in the very life of the Church.
I guess being on a Catholic Forum site, I will always get basic Catholic apologetics as a common response.
 
What do you think of these guidelines and principle of Scripture interpretation?

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77
What does anybody else think of these guidelines for proper Scripture interpretation?
 
It would be nice to discuss the thread topic sometimes instead of getting basic Catholic apologetics responses.
You asked me if the Catholic Church started with Peter, for crying out loud. And now you are blamining me for going off topic because I answered your question? :confused:
 
Coming up on 20 pages, you have plenty of on topic responses. Perhaps the weekend could be spent evaluating what you have here in prayer.

Have a great weekend.

Take care,
 
These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. - Gospel of John
Amen!
Protestants believe the Helper is the Holy Spirit who dwells in all true believers, regardless of what church they attend. The Holy Spirit is not contained in the walls of the Catholic Church, nor is He dependent on the Catholic Church in His work of illuminating truth to the elect of God. It is the Holy Spirit who illuminates truth in the Scriptures to Christians.
And this is very Catholic of you to say, CU. 👍
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. John 16:12-14
Amen.

So what was it that you were hoping guanophore would retract?

Still confused. :confused:
 
Let’s all go back to the thread topic of predestination and free will. I know these are exclusive Protestant sources, buy hey… this is the non-Catholic Forum section. Can you please comment on these quotes against the idea of free will?

🍿

Free-will or Free-grace?; The Bible says that men are born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13); that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy (Rom 9;16); the work of faith is the operation of God according to the exceeding greatness of his power, who works in man both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.”
  • C. H. Spurgeon
“All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with “free-will”, and these are countless … For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because “free-will” can do nothing.”
  • Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, pg. 270
If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
  • Martin Luther
“…human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains liberty.”
  • John Calvin
“We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it’s principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ,” it is God that worketh in us to will and to do ’ (Phil. 2:13)
  • John Calvin
 
Let’s all go back to the thread topic of predestination and free will. I know these are exclusive Protestant sources, buy hey… this is the non-Catholic Forum section. Can you please comment on these quotes against the idea of free will?

🍿

Free-will or Free-grace?; The Bible says that men are born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13); that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy (Rom 9;16); the work of faith is the operation of God according to the exceeding greatness of his power, who works in man both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.”
  • C. H. Spurgeon
“All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with “free-will”, and these are countless … For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because “free-will” can do nothing.”
  • Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, pg. 270
If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
  • Martin Luther
“…human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains liberty.”
  • John Calvin
“We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it’s principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ,” it is God that worketh in us to will and to do ’ (Phil. 2:13)
  • John Calvin
Hi CU
We have free will to follow the will of God; Namely His Ten Commandments;grace cannot help but flow from the obedience that Adam once had, before the fall.😃

God Bless
:)🍿
 
We live by Gods Grace by the moment, we have a free-will to remain in communion with Gods Grace by the moment or not. The inclination to sin remains as mentioned.
 
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