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Christian_Unity
Guest
You do understand being a skeptic in the Catholic Faith is different than believing in the Lord Jesus, and obeying the gospel of God, right? I’ve been a Christian for at least 30 years.
Predestination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism...
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Christian_Unity
Guest
You may not realize that the Jokers are wild in our theological poker game, and I always have the two wild Joker cards in my possession. Good try, but the 5 of a kind does beat the Catholic Royal Flush. Can you guess: what are my two wild Joker Cards are in the game of theology? The 5 of a kind is very symbolic too of the 5 solas.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
I have never been to seminary but thought about it years ago. I have always read and studied various theological books from different perspectives, including Catholic ones. As a Protestant, I have attended numerous Bible Studies over the years. Thank you for your warm welcome to Catholic Answers; it makes our discussions so much more comfortable.
Are you guys familiar with the two documents called “Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1, and Evangelical and Catholics Together 2”? What are your thoughts about that work that occurred in the 1994 and 1996?
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PRmerger
Guest
Interesting that you say I may not realize that the Jokers are wild.
That is absolutely true.
Protestants have made up their own rules to this poker game.
Catholics play by the rules. The rules of Christ.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Interesting that you say I may not realize that the Jokers are wild.
That is absolutely true.
Protestants have made up their own rules to this poker game.
Catholics play by the rules. The rules of Christ.
We play by God’s rule book.
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PRmerger
Guest
Ok. So let’s get this back on track.
God’s rule book is revealed to us through His Church.
You would not know it any other way.
Which is why the Church has always proclaimed: outside the Church there is no salvation.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Okay, help me understand why you consider the Bible to be a Catholic book. When the OT was being recorded, I think the Catholic Church did not exist, correct? Do you think OT believers were saved by the work of Christ on their behalf, or the Church, or some other way?
On the other hand, I believe in remnant theology in which OT and NT saints makeup one redeemed people of God; all saved by the person and work of Christ. I rejoice with Job saying that my redeemer lives (Jesus Christ). Outside of Christ, there is no salvation.
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Radyj
Guest
Indeed I do, Yet obeying the gospel would require participation in the church that Christ founded would it not? and as far as believing, I’ve used to think that belief alone was enough but if you want to discuss Sola Fide we can start a new thread
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PRmerger
Guest
The Bible is a Catholic book because it reflects the faith given, once for all, to us.Okay, help me understand why you consider the Bible to be a Catholic book. When the OT was being recorded, I think the Catholic Church did not exist, correct? Do you think OT believers were saved by the work of Christ on their behalf, or the Church, or some other way?
On the other hand, I believe in remnant theology in which OT and NT saints makeup one redeemed people of God; all saved by the person and work of Christ. I rejoice with Job saying that my redeemer lives (Jesus Christ). Outside of Christ, there is no salvation.
The kerygma came first. It was proclaimed initially by the Apostles, then through their successors…
Then some of it was written down…
Then the successors to the Apostles discerned which of these books reflected Catholic teaching that had already been proclaimed throughout all of Judea and beyond…
and canonized these writings into one codex.
And then, re-confirmed these writings…
and re-confirmed them…
until finally declaring the Bible to be as we know it today. Infallibly.
Thus, it was written by Catholics, for Catholics and produced by Catholics.
Regarding the OT Scriptures: they reflect the Catholic faith as well.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Since you are an RCIA student, it is good to remind you that the CCC recognizes Protestants baptized in the Triune formula without participating in the Catholic Church as your separated brethrens. Do you know what Scripture reveals about those who do not obey the gospel? Can you show me in Scripture that participation in the Catholic Church is required for obeying the gospel? Better yet, please share with me your understanding of the gospel according to Paul? Please participate on the Forensic justification thread if you want to discuss Sola Fide.
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - Bible
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Christian_Unity
Guest
The OT is not a Catholic book, rather it is a Jewish book. Please show me where the seven Catholic sacraments are taught in the OT too.
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.
It is therefore not inspired to you? Is that your point?
It’s right after the verse that says I have to show you where anything we believe needs to be found in the OT.
Again, have you forgotten that you are on a Catholic forum in dialogue with Catholics?
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PRmerger
Guest
There is only one baptism, CU. And there is only One Church.
If you say yes to His Body, you say yes to Him.
If you say, “Yes, but…” to His Body, you say, “Yes, but…” to Him.
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SteveVH
Guest
Rather than always sending people on errands and playing games according to your rules, why don’t you just tell us? What does Scripture say about those who do not obey the Gospel?
Jesus delegated all power and authority to the Church, through the Apostles (Mt 28:18-20), the power to forgive sin (Jn 20:23), the power to offer sacrifice through the Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-24), the power to speak with Christ’s voice (Lk 10:16), the power to legislate (Mt 18:18) and the power to discipline (Mt 18:17). The Church is proclaimed as the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15). Christ proclaimed that “…whoever hears you, hears me and whoever rejects you, rejects me” (Lk 10:16).
In order to obey Christ, you must now obey the Church and if you reject the Church you reject Christ. Of course participation in the Catholic Church is required for obeying the Gospel. Why do you imagine that Christ started a Church?
I would happy to share my understanding of the Gospel of Paul, if there was a Gospel of Paul. What the heck are you reading?
Yes sir.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - Bible
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SteveVH
Guest
Now wasn’t that much easier?
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fhansen
Guest
Never heard of “remnant theology” in scripture. Is that some sort of ancient Christian Tradition? Or just something you believe personally? Where is the Church Jesus established BTW? In the hearts of various Christians who believe variously while all holding onto the same wild card known as sola scriptura?Okay, help me understand why you consider the Bible to be a Catholic book. When the OT was being recorded, I think the Catholic Church did not exist, correct? Do you think OT believers were saved by the work of Christ on their behalf, or the Church, or some other way?
On the other hand, I believe in remnant theology in which OT and NT saints makeup one redeemed people of God; all saved by the person and work of Christ. I rejoice with Job saying that my redeemer lives (Jesus Christ). Outside of Christ, there is no salvation.
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RobbyS
Guest
IMHO, the controversy over grace came about because the evangelicals took Augustine’s side in the fight about Pelegius’ teachings as if it were “the gospel truth,” when it is not clear that Augustine himself did not cross the line. We all tend to read St, Paul’s with Augustinian spectables. It should be mentioned that the Greek Fathers, and of course, Jerome, did not, and after they heard Pelegius out, were not exactly jumping on the Latin Father’s bandwagon. When the Greeks first were exposed to Calvin’s teachings, some of them were taken with them, including the Patriarch . That did not last of course. The Calvinists dubbed the Catholic position as “semi-Pelegian,” which is to say an view of man that did not accept the extraordinarily dark view of mankind as “dead,” as a result of original sin, with only the best of the non-elect capable of doing good things, and the worst of them being as black a Satan. Of course, the Evangelicals departed from this view and moved more toward the Catholic view, in the teachings of Arminius, which is now the dominant view. The Jansenist view was the “Cathilic” version of Calvinism, and was also based on a deep study of Augustine’s works. I was eventually condemned by the pope. I must confess that the details of the similarities and differences among the parties are beyond my longest reach.Predesination, free will, Augustine Pelagian controversy, Catholic views, Calvinism… let’s discuss in a Christ like manner as siblings in Christ.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
‘Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.’
‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’
Augustine
‘For we are now speaking of the desire for goodness. If they want to say that this begins from ourselves and is then perfected by God, let them see how they can answer the apostle when he says, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5)’
Augustine
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Christian_Unity
Guest
From first beginnings to final completion, salvation is by grace
Since these things are so, everything that is commanded to human beings by the Lord in the holy Scriptures, for the sake of testing human free will, is either something we begin to obey by God’s goodness, or is demanded in order to show us our need of grace to do it. Indeed, a person does not even begin to be changed from evil to good by the first stirrings of faith, unless the free and gratuitous mercy of God produces this in him…. So, therefore, we should think of God’s grace as working from the beginning of a person’s changing towards goodness, even to the end of its completion, so that he who glories may glory in the Lord. For just as no-one can bring goodness to perfection without the Lord, so no one can begin it without the Lord.
Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:23
Since these things are so, everything that is commanded to human beings by the Lord in the holy Scriptures, for the sake of testing human free will, is either something we begin to obey by God’s goodness, or is demanded in order to show us our need of grace to do it. Indeed, a person does not even begin to be changed from evil to good by the first stirrings of faith, unless the free and gratuitous mercy of God produces this in him…. So, therefore, we should think of God’s grace as working from the beginning of a person’s changing towards goodness, even to the end of its completion, so that he who glories may glory in the Lord. For just as no-one can bring goodness to perfection without the Lord, so no one can begin it without the Lord.
Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, 2:23
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