Doesn’t our apparent free will get empowered and influenced through receiving grace as an enabling source to allow us to do the will of God? For instance, partaking in the Eucharist and other Catholic sacraments strengthens the Catholic to walk according to a manner pleasing to God. Protestants would access grace too which would influence our will to conform to the will of God too.
They failed to recognize the nature and will of God.Let’s all go back to the thread topic of predestination and free will. I know these are exclusive Protestant sources, buy hey… this is the non-Catholic Forum section. Can you please comment on these quotes against the idea of free will?
Free-will or Free-grace?; The Bible says that men are born again, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13); that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy (Rom 9;16); the work of faith is the operation of God according to the exceeding greatness of his power, who works in man both to will and to do of his own good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)
“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.”
“All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with “free-will”, and these are countless … For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because “free-will” can do nothing.”
- C. H. Spurgeon
If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
- Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, pg. 270
“…human will does not by liberty obtain grace, but by grace obtains liberty.”
- Martin Luther
“We are all sinners by nature ,therefore we are held under the yoke of sin . But if the whole man is subject to the dominion of sin , surely the will , which is it’s principal seat , must be bound with the closest of chains. And indeed if divine grace were preceded by any will of ours, Paul could not have said that ,” it is God that worketh in us to will and to do ’ (Phil. 2:13)
- John Calvin
- John Calvin
Close, but no door prize for Johnny, Marty, Charlie et al.Part of the problem comes from the Protestant view that salvation is necessarily a one time event rather than a drawing or leading man into righteousness, a process man can back out of any time along the way.
Please explain your point. I’m not sure if I understand what you are saying. What are they not recognizing about the nature and will of God?They failed to recognize the nature and will of God.
That’s not completely true. Historic bibilcal Protestant theology believes that salvation is a process which begins with predestination. Here is the biblical chain of event of salvation:
Let me ask you…CU…which is more logical/plausible:
It’s a large topic, and the differences involve differnces of emphasis, seemingly subtle and yet very significant in how we understand God and salvation. The nature of God includes love, a love for His creation, especially man and angels, beyond what we can imagine-pure, breathtaking, unconditional love. God really does desire that none should perish; God predestines none to damnation.
But the point is that, if man can’t back out, can’t resist grace, then his will is nonetheless uninvolved.
The challenge for my Catholic siblings is to discuss and debate what the Scriptures reveal about such issues.
The OP didn’t mention scripture as the sole source of revelation to be used, and scripture, as we should know, doesn’t interpret itself which is why even adherents to sola scriptura can disagree significantly on its meaning. The faith can’t be understood apart from the church which received it -with her traditional understandings.
Please feel free to quote from official Catholic sources. However, we are on the non-Catholic Forum section. Catholics and Protestants both believe that Sacred Scripture is divine revelation from above; therefore, Catholics siblings should not be afraid of what Sacred Scripture will reveal on these issues. It is my understanding that the Catholic views of free will and predestination can be quite diverse. I would lean more toward Augustine on these issues. It would be nice to understand what are allowable ranges of view in which a Catholic can believe… since some views on here seem to be Pelagius in nature.
butter popcorn is tastySays who? We have 2000 years of Tradition and Catholic teaching on the subject. Why would we limit ourselves to the Scriptures?
There is a wide range of allowable views on these issues as Catholics. What are those ranges? Do you agree more with Augustine or Pelagian on these issues?Your response:
Is it just impossible for you to answer a question or respond specifically to a post? You just continue to throw flack in an effort to avoid having to make a point. Your response to my post has absolutely nothing to do with point made.
Let God give what He commands, and command what He will." - Augustine Confessions
“Through freedom man came to be in sin, but the corruption which followed as punishment turned freedom into necessity.” - Augustine On Man’s Perfection In Righteousness
“To will is of nature, but to will aright is of grace.” - Augustine Sermons
“God bids us do what we cannot, that we may know what we ought to seek from him.” - Augustine On Grace And Free Will
“Let us take heed we be not compelled to believe that Almighty God would have any thing done which doth not come to pass.” - Augustine Enchiridion
“Grace does not destroy the will but rather restores it.” - Augustine On Grace And Free Will
“Who does not tremble at these judgments, where God works even in evil men’s hearts, whatever he wills, yet renders to them according to their deserts?” - Augustine On Grace And Free Will
Augustine
The Church has no reason to fear the book she wrote.
Pelagius believed that man had the capability to make himself righteous in the eyes of God by his own efforts. Catholics believe that man can be made righteous only with God’s grace and man’s cooperation with it. When arguing against Pelagianism, Augustine, understandably, emphasized God’s role. But he made the following statements at other times:
I’m here for receiving an education, fellowship among all Christians, and an agenda for a call for Christian unity among Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians in obedience to John 17 for the sake of unbelievers. Why would I want to convert Catholics to become Protestants since we are all united to Christ by faith… there is only one body of Christ. What is the purpose of the non-Catholic Forum section? It seems it has been designed for a place to compare and contrast beliefs between all Christians from the various Christian communities. I also run a Christian Fellowship FB site in which members are both Catholics and Protestants. Therefore, it is important for me to continue to learn official Catholic teaching to keep a balance on that site. BTW, if you Facebook, you are officially invited to fellowship with us too.CU, what is your purpose here at Catholic Forums? Are you here to disagree with catholic teachings and are trying to get us to convert to your ways or are you just lonely and need a hug? It seems from all your threads that you are trying to attack us Catholics. If im wrong then I apologize but you come across as someone that thinks they know all there is to know about Scripture yet cant answer any of these folks questions.
In Confessions 10,31 Augustine prayed to God that He would accomplish in him what He enjoined should be accomplished in him, the overcoming of concupiscence.
I was on another Catholic Forum site years ago, and we started discussing these same issues. In what I understood, there is quite a large range of beliefs allowed within the Catholic Church. One issued surprised me. According to a few solid Catholics on that site, we started to discuss perseverance grace, which strengthens Catholics to endure to the end. I believe those Catholics seemed to indicate that this perseverance grace was selected grace given to some and not others. Does anybody know of such Catholic teaching on that issue? Why are some Catholics able to endure to the end, and others do not? Why are some Catholics compelled to access the grace dispensed through the sacraments in greater capacity as compared to others?