Um, maybe because their wills play a part? Why did Augustine care enough, hunger enough for righteousness, that he prayed for help to overcome his own inability to overcome? I don’t think the answer is so cut and dry-it’s not either/or, God or me, it’s both/and. For me, that’;s beautiful; God drawing man into playing a necessary role.
My answer to your question: the grace of God. The next logical question is: do people receive different degrees or amount of grace of God than others? Certainly Mary and Paul received greater grace then most, correct?
Can’t really answer for God but yes, it seems they do, according to their needs and his will for them and what he may want them to accomplish. In the end we all have sufficient grace for salvation.
I like the idea of sufficient grace in which you stated… which was also coined by the Apostle Paul. If you guys give me some patience and liberty on this issue of sufficient grace, and degrees of grace in which people receive, it seems this would be the area to continue our discussion. Obviously, we both believe that not all will end up in Heaven including those who profess Christ or have been baptized. Therefore, there is a concept of how effectual the grace of God is in regarding the work of God in redeeming sinners as eternal adopted children of God.
If God’s grace is sufficient and yet not all are saved then the wild card must be man’s will, otherwise God would be opposing His own will/grace. Paul tells us that creation itself attests to the existence of God, so that no one has excuse for unbelief. Are we to hold God accountable anyway for a person’s lack of faith?
If we say that if the wild card is man’s will, then shouldn’t we conclude that man is sovereign over God in salvation? God cannot be sovereign in salvation if man control’s his own fate and destiny. I do agree that all mankind are without excuse, and are accountable for his actions, including the sin of unbelief. However, we do know that some are saved and will be in Heaven, and others are not and will receive divine justice and eternal punishment. Those who will be saved will boast that salvation is of the Lord, and not of themselves.
There are two wills involved. God wills that none should perish. Sin and hell exist only because He allows His will to be opposed-by mans will. The only other option is that He directly wills evil in which case heaven won’t be any better than hell. If a person throws a life preserver to a drowning man, two wills are involved, one gives while the other must receive, and yet the man drowns in.any case without the giver. And if man is responsible for his own unbelief then he already plays a role in salvation.
I think a better translation is the God desires that none should perish. I don’t think Catholic theology would say that God wills that none should perish, because we know some wiill perish in eternal destruction. There is a battle of wills, but God’s sovereign will comes to pass over man’s will, because He is God and we are not. Our God rules and reigns and His sovereign will always comes to pass; do you seem to agree?
Might be a distinction without a difference.
Yes, He sovreignly wills that our wills play a role in determining our eternal fate.
And God, alone, knows who will end up where. So, from man’s perspective, what we will is relevant for our salvation. The rest is merely academic.
I don’t believe theses issues are academic because I believe we were saved to the praise of His glorious grace. If we grow in knowledge which enables us to praise Him more, then these issues are very important to receive in our minds and hearts. Check on these verses… because I don’t think there is any room to boast in ourselves:
Paul’s conveying the Christian* ideal*. Do you really think that every member of the Ephesian church whom Paul was addressing was necessarily saved? Throughout that letter Paul admonishes those same believers to remain in the Spirit and not slip back into a life of debauchery. They have the choice. We* all* have the choice throughout the time we’re allotted to live after first coming to know Christ, which is why, in the next book, Philillpians, Paul can say that he’s still striving to attain eternal life himself.
If you tell your son to clean his room and you’ll go to Chucky Cheezes for dinner, yet he fails to clean his room and you do not go does his will override your own?
It’s good to note that Protestants fall into two camps regarding the sovereignty of God in salvation. Most modern day Protestants fall into the Arminian camp of free will, similar to what Catholics believe on the issue.
You have used a Father and son analogy which illustrates truth. God adopts children of darkness into His family on the basis of predestination and a forensic justification. He makes them children of light for His own glory. After receiving a forensic justification, God makes His adopted children grow in personal obedience and personal holiness through disciple; therefore,His adopted children become more like Christ throughout this life (process of sanctfication). For those who are outside the adopted family of God, there is no discipline given since they are not legitmate children of God; rather they are children of disobedience (children of the devil).
Never mind I’m sorry I came back to this thread thank you for not answering my question. Which was on the point you attempted to make on conflicting will.
Luke 24:26-27
This promise was made to the Apostles. It does not apply to those who depart from unity with them. We can see already in the book of Acts that those claiming to come from God attempted to deliver “a different gospel” than the one delivered by the Aposltes. Only in unity with the Apostles can we have confidence that we are protected by the promise of the HS.
A worthy challenge. But in entering such a debate, one must be cognizant that Catholics do not derive doctrine by piecing together single or small collection of verses as do our separated brethren. We receive the doctrine from the Church, to which it was entrusted by Christ, then we understand what is written in the light of what the Aposltes believed and taught.
Yes, fortunately. I think it’s also relevant that many Protestants, regardless of denominational affiliation and professed theology, tend to live to one degree or another as though their decisions and actons count in regards their eternal destiny, demonstrating that wisdom prevails among the average believer.
It’s already been adequately shown by myself and others to anyone except, perhaps, someone who prefers not to be confused by the facts.
That’s definitely not the testimony of Scripture-and God’s glorified just fine by the true gospel-He certainly doesn’t need false ones in order to be glorified more. In fact, it’s the subtle falsehood of your gospel that really strikes me. I think that’s why people who profess it never come across as someone who has much of a grasp of what God’s glory really means-it always sounds feigned or pretentious in some way when they use such terms-kind of cloying.
I was once shanghaied by my kids into watching an Adam Sandler movie-don’t remember the name-where he’d imagine that some rich benefactor was about to give him a Ferrari or a million bucks or some other desire and he’d always end up letting out a gleeful, but misled, squeal,* ‘For meeeee*?’ before he realized that he’d been mistaken about the would-be benefactor’s intentions. This reminds me of those who appropriate certain bibical verses, such as Eph 2:1-10 or John 15:15-17 as pertaining to themselves, fancying that they, individually, have a better grasp on their meaning then the Church Jesus established to hold and proclaim the gospel.
This is true. Election is not random. It is predetermined as the author states.
This is wrong. The key word here is naturally. Without grace, man is not naturally in a state of sin. What I say naturally, I must define what I mean by that, and how I can deduce that. A purely natural man, in the strictest sense of the word, is a rational animal. The human nature is not, in and of itself something special. It is special because God predestined it to be something special. What does this ordination entail? This ordination is the call to share in eternal life, and the call to everlasting life is a supernatural call. However, because this ordination is supernatural and not natural, not something due to Adam and Eve by their nature, this actual ordination bestowed on the human nature came after Adam was created, not in the creation itself. In other words, this ordination is not part of Adam’s nature. This act of ordination is not explicitly stated in Genesis, but we can deduce it, and even further. What is eternal life? Eternal life is the life of God, the only eternal being. Therefore, it is easy to conclude that the call to eternal life is the call to share in the life of God. And how do we share in the eternal life of God? We do this through a communion, or friendship, with God. This is stated explicitly in the Westminster confession:
It is very clear that this communion with God, through abiding with the law written on their hearts and the power to fulfill it, would result in the fulfillment of their partaking of eternal life. This is also said in the Westminster Confession:
This communion with God is the ordination, the calling. While Adam was without need of regeneration, he was in need of having a new heart and a new spirit created in him, because this is a necessary effect of the dwelling of His Word and Spirit indwelling. It is by this that the practice of true holiness is possible, without which no man shall see the Lord. The Confession says very clearly that we need grace to participate in eternal life.