Predestination or not

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DavidCro

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Here’s the question that confuses me. The protestant theologians claim that when God created men, they predetermined which one goes to heaven and which one goes to hell. The Catholic Church has an opposing view, whit which you are, I believe, familiar with (free will, effective mercy etc.). However, I’m puzzled by few questions.

God is all knowing. Does God know if some men, having free will, are not able at all to achieve God’s mercy and go to heaven? If he knows that some men are unable to go to heaven, given their disposal of their free will, how is this not predestination?
 
I liked how CS Lewis put it.

Since God exists outside of how we experience time, He can see everything as it’s happening.

So it’s not that he’s seeing our future, he’s seeing our past, present, and future, all at his present.

It’s not predestination because we still make the choices, he’s just already watching us make the choices.

Someone can correct me if I’ve done a poor job on that
 
DavidCro said:
The protestant theologians claim that when God created men, they predetermined which one goes to heaven and which one goes to hell.
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I think this is what is called double predestination.
DavidCro said:
God is all knowing. Does God know if some men, having free will, are not able at all to achieve God’s mercy and go to heaven? If he knows that some men are unable to go to heaven, given their disposal of their free will, how is this not predestination?
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Best example. You are on the 20th floor of a building and you see a car going southbound in the same lane that a car is going northbound. You are 100% certain that these cars are going to collide because they are both cresting a hill and will not see each other in time.

Did you predestine these cars to collide?

Obviously not. Foreknowledge of what will occur is not the same as willing it to occur.

Hope this helps

God Bless
 
DavidCro said:
Does God know if some men, having free will, are not able at all to achieve God’s mercy and go to heaven?
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No, because everyone is able to achieve God’s mercy and go to heaven if they want to. Just because someone goes to hell doesn’t mean they weren’t able to go to heaven.
DavidCro said:
If he knows that some men are unable to go to heaven
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No one is unable to go to heaven.
 
Because we can choose to say open a door or not. Just because God has already seen what our choice will be doesn’t negate us making it.
 
MT1926 said:
You are on the 20th floor of a building and you see a car going southbound in the same lane that a car is going northbound. You are 100% certain that these cars are going to collide because they are both cresting a hill and will not see each other in time.
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That is so because there are laws of physics that determine the cars will collide. Are there then laws within humans that make us sin, without possibility of repentance and these laws are known to God?
 
What is the function of God’s mercy then when God already knows our choices? That is, he gives us mercy, but he already knows we won’t act upon it.
 
DavidCro said:
That is so because there are laws of physics that determine the cars will collide. Are there then laws within humans that make us sin, without possibility of repentance and these laws are known to God?
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I don’t understand the question? I would say the cars are colliding because of human error, and from your vantage point you are able to see what will be the consequence of this human error. What law of physics do you believe forced the one car to get in the wrong lane and determined the cars to collide
 
I’d argue that giving us mercy despite our choices is what mercy really is.
 
MT1926 said:
I don’t understand the question? I would say the cars are colliding because of human error, and from your vantage point you are able to see what will be the consequence of this human error. What law of physics do you believe forced the one car to get in the wrong lane and determined the cars to collide
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This is what I was aiming at. Some human error already determined how are we going to act. This error we call original sin. Why then, as I asked before, God gives us mercy, if he already knows that some men won’t act upon it?
 
God shows mercy regardless of the outcome because it is good to be merciful even to evil people.
 
DavidCro said:
What is the function of God’s mercy then when God already knows our choices? That is, he gives us mercy, but he already knows we won’t act upon it.
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We don’t totally have 100 percent knowledge of how God’s mercy works. We have a reasonably good understanding but there may be dimensions to it of which we are not aware, because either some bright theologian saint who can enlighten us has not yet been born, or else it’s beyond man’s understanding.

God puts his mercy and other gifts out there for everybody. A large number of people WILL accept those gifts and he knows it. He also knows some people will choose not to accept the gifts, but it’s not because God didn’t make the gifts equally available to them. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a choice made by the person.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
there may be dimensions to it of which we are not aware, because either some bright theologian saint who can enlighten us has not yet been born, or else it’s beyond man’s understanding.
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For some issues there are also good explanations already available and known to some people, but some of us forum-dwellers just aren’t personally familiar with them yet.
 
So then, he decided to give his mercy to humankind, knowing that all will not be saved. My question is then regarding to decision in everyday life. The question is - why bother? Why bother with struggling with your internal desires, when your acts are already known in future? You’re either part of those who will accept the mercy or the party that won’t.
 
dmar198 said:
For some issues there are also good explanations already available and known to some people, but some of us forum-dwellers just aren’t personally familiar with them yet.
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Exactly so. I know I’m asking a question answered already millions of times.
 
Imagine having a tiny little spy camera.

You take that camera, attach it to a person, and you secretly film that person 24/7 over the next 5 years.

You then create a time machine.

You go back in time 5 years.

You now know everything that person will do over the next 5 years.

Does that person no longer have free will because you know everything they will do?
 
Neither I nor bearself is arguing in favor of predestination… it’s a protestant belief. Which we’ve both argued against. I think you’re confused.
 
DavidCro said:
So then, he decided to give his mercy to humankind, knowing that all will not be saved. My question is then regarding to decision in everyday life. The question is - why bother? Why bother with struggling with your internal desires, when your acts are already known in future? You’re either part of those who will accept the mercy or the party that won’t.
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I appeal to your common sense. How do you let this problem affect you in other matters? If you were a farmer, would you say, “God knows whether I will have a crop or not. If He knows that I will have a crop, I will have it whatever I do. If He knows that I will not have a crop, I will not have it, whatever I do. Therefore, I will do nothing. I will neither plough, nor sow seed.” That is foolish, for if God knows that you are to have a crop, His knowledge includes the knowledge that you will take the means. You can apply the same thought to any other matter of ordinary experience. If God knows that you will catch a train, you will catch it; if He knows that you won’t catch it, you won’t. Therefore, what is the use of going to the station at all? Surely you see the absurdity! God has decreed that certain things will result from the use of certain means. Heaven will be the result of trying to serve God. Take the means, and you will attain the normal result of such means. To do anything else is to be guilty of a folly in the matter of eternal salvation of which you would not be guilty in any other matter.
 
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