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SteveVH
Guest
Sounds a lot like “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” to me. Many are called. Those that are chosen have persevered to the end.
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This mentality is Calvinist and is wrong. For one thing, barring any special revelation from God, no one knows who is of the elect.
This question presupposes that God predestines people to hell and that there’s nothing they can do to avoid it. This is double predestination and is explicitly condemned as heretical. Catholic teaching does include the mystery of reprobation, but as contrasted with the Calvinist view, God predestines or reprobates always with man’s free will in mind.
Why not do some research on the Thomist and Molinist views on Predestination as both are acceptable Catholic views. Either or both can be accepted as they both account for grace and free will. Calvinism rejects free will and is heretical.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
The doctrines of Calvinism including predestination comes from Scripture alone. There are really only two views of predestination with variances. The two views are based on how someone defines foreknew.Nice try but no cookie.
Calvinism is an erroneous and twisted way to interpret some Catholicism when it comes to predestination.
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.- Rom 8
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Therein lies the problem.
Interpreting Scriptures without Tradition is like interpreting water without the Oxygen molecule. It’s incomplete.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
The Catholic Thomist-Aquinas-Augustine view of predestination is simply Calvinism with the exception of double predestination. Heck, many Calvinists have a single predestination view like Catholics. The Catholic Thomist-Aquinas-Augustine view is a single predestination position with the same understanding of the word “foreknew” as Calvinism and believes just like Calvinism in which the elect receive a special grace which the non-elect do not receive (needed for final salvation). If you do a deep study and understood the issues between Calvinism and a Catholic Thomist view of predestination, the conclusion is the same.
All these and Romans 9 support the doctrine of predestination, which is why Catholics cannot reject it either. The problem with I would guess is the vast majority of Catholics is that they don’t realize that predestination is Catholic dogma based on these Scripture passages. This is also why there is much that is compatible with Catholicism and Calvinism. We differ where Calvinism begins to reject man’s free cooperation in grace and the thought that God actively predestines people to hell without preconsideration of any foreseen demerits (it appears, though, that double predestination is not held by all Calvinists).The doctrines of Calvinism including predestination comes from Scripture alone. There are really only two views of predestination with variances. The two views are based on how someone defines foreknew.
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.- Rom 8
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1
That’s right. The Thomist view is that God out of his own sheer pleasure elects certain people to salvation, without any consideration of their foreseen merits. He then bestows grace on the elect that he knows they will freely co-operate with in order to infallibly secure their salvation. To the degree that Calvinism also teaches this, we agree. That’s why I said, there is much that is compatible between Calvinism and Catholicism in the area of predestination to blessedness.The Catholic Thomist-Aquinas-Augustine view of predestination is simply Calvinism with the exception of double predestination. Heck, many Calvinists have a single predestination view like Catholics. The Catholic Thomist-Aquinas-Augustine view is a single predestination position with the same understanding of the word “foreknew” as Calvinism and believes just like Calvinism in which the elect receive a special grace which the non-elect do not receive which is needed for final salvation. If you do a deep study and understood the issues between Calvinism and a Catholic Thomist view of predestination, the conclusion is the same.
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Tomster
Guest
Just some food for thought.
The verb to predestinate occurs only six times in four distinct texts:
The verb to predestinate occurs only six times in four distinct texts:
- Acts 4:28 (to predestine signifies simply to decide in advance, and has no relation to theological predestination)
- 1 Corinthians 2:7 (the object of the predestination is not a person, but a thing, the revelation of the divine counsels)
- Romans 8:29 (we see that prescience precedes predestination, and that they have here the same range of meaning; that is, they are applicable to the same subjects)
- Romans 8:30 (it appears that predestination, having the same scope as calling, cannot have as its end, at least directly, eternal life)
- Ephesians 1:5 (the end of the predestination is filial adoption, completed in this life)
- Ephesians 1:11 (it is equally common to all believers, and has as its end the efficacious call to faith)
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Christian_Unity
Guest
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. - Romans 8:29
- I comes down to the word “foreknew”. Protestantism has the same two positions as Catholicism. Arminianism is the same as the Catholic Molino view. The Cathoic Thomist view is the same as Calvinism in how we define the key word “foreknew”. There is quite a bit of mystery and variance on the details, but it comes out the same in both Christian communities based on the word “foreknew”, in how you define it.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
Do you believe what God decrees or ordains will come to pass since God causes what He ordains to come to pass through providence?
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vvo444
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In Thomism, one could take “foreknow” as simply God’s selection of the elect. In Molinism, God’s foreknowledge is a bit clearer, specifically, his middle knowledge on how each person responds to any given order of grace.
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Tomster
Guest
Do we wish to understand the manner of our predestination? Consider, then, the predestination of our Head. St. Augustine says: “The resplendent light of predestination and of grace is Our Savior Himself, Jesus Christ, the Mediator between God and men.” His predestination and His grace throw light upon ours; they are, of ours, the light, the model, the example."
To what, first of all, are we predestined? Christ Himself is predestined to be the Son of God by nature. We ourselves are predestined to divine sonship by adoption, and thereby we share in a certain way in natural sonship. Manifestly that which is of itself is the measure and the pattern of those things which are not of themselves but are of this order by participation therein. So the predestination of Christ to be the Son of God by nature is the measure and the pattern of our predestination and of our adoptive sonship, a true sharing and image of natural filiation.
The end, the result of predestination is our likeness to the true Son of God. As Christ in His predestination is the exemplary cause of our predestination, so also is He the efficient cause thereof. It is as if we were to say: God in His eternal purposes has ordained and provided the means for our salvation in such a way that all is accomplished through Christ.Through Christ our predestination attains its end. Christ has been predestined to be our Head and our Savior. We ourselves are predestined to be His members, benefitting by His merits and His grace, and by these means attaining our eternal destiny.
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Christian_Unity
Guest
In Calvinism, one could take “foreknow” as simply God’s selection of the elect. In Arminianism, God’s foreknowledge is a bit clearer, specifically, his middle knowledge on how each person responds to any given order of grace.
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october_baby
Guest
Can you help me with the reasearch? Of instance what is Molinist? What does St. Thomas
teach? Please help me this is important to me!
In a nutshell:Can you help me with the reasearch? Of instance what is Molinist? What does St. Thomas
teach? Please help me this is important to me!
Thomism teaches that God elects certain people to eternal blessedness for no reason than his sheer will and pleasure and without consideration of their merits. He then bestows upon them graces that he knows they will freely respond to and thereby merit heaven due to their free cooperation with his grace.
Molinism takes a different view in that God knows through his middle knowledge (that is, God knows how each person responds if a particular set of conditions are in place) who will respond to various orders of grace. God then, out of his sheer will and pleasure, ordains a particular order of grace. He then knows how each person freely responds to that order of grace. Those he foresees as freely co-operating with his grace, he predestines to heaven. However here, he also sees how certain people with freely reject this grace, and those, on account of their foreseen demerits (i.e. their willful rejection of grace), he predestines to hell.
Both lines of thought are different, but are acceptable for Catholics to hold. Note that in both cases, free will and grace are affirmed, and double-predestination is rejected. Also, for Predestination in general, one must hold that any one’s predestination is unknowable outside of special revelation by God.
Ludwig Ott has a very well-written summary of both schools; you can find an excerpt from his “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” here: socrates58.blogspot.ca/2006/11/catholic-predestination-ludwig-ott.html
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Christian_Unity
Guest
There’s quite a bit on the Internet: you can Google Catholic Predestination. Here is a good link to start with:Can you help me with the reasearch? Of instance what is Molinist? What does St. Thomas
teach? Please help me this is important to me!
catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html
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Capuchinfan1337
Guest
CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622
CCC 1037 can still be reconciled with Molinist thought on reprobation, which, as mentioned, is considered acceptable Catholic teaching.
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