Predestination problems

[Capuchinfan1337]

CCC 1037 can still be reconciled with Molinist thought on reprobation, which, as mentioned, is considered acceptable Catholic teaching.

Yes, but Molinist splits from Calvinism by affirming that God grants salvation, but humanity has the choice to freely accept it or reject it (but God knows that if the person were put in a particular situation he or she would not reject it). This differs from Calvinistic predestination, which states that a person’s salvation is already determined by God such that he or she cannot choose otherwise or resist God’s grace.

So, this is not predestination.

 

[porthos11]

Yes, but Molinist splits from Calvinism by affirming that God grants salvation, but humanity has the choice to freely accept it or reject it (but God knows that if the person were put in a particular situation he or she would not reject it). This differs from Calvinistic predestination, which states that a person’s salvation is already determined by God such that he or she cannot choose otherwise or resist God’s grace.

So, this is not predestination.

Calvinistic predestination to blessedness is pretty much equal to Thomistic predestination, except that Thomistic predestination still affirms free will (according to Thomism, God gives the necessary graces that he knows the elect person will freely co-operate with). In Thomism, God predestines to blessedness without any consideration of a person’s foreseen merits. In other words, in Thomistic thought, God predestines a person simply because he wills that this person will be saved.

Molinism, on the other hand, is another Catholic attempt to explain the mystery of predestination, so it would be wrong to say that Molinism is “not predestination” because it is. It’s just that Molinism states that God knows beforehand through his scientia media how people respond to various orders of grace, and then out of his free pleasure, sets out a fixed order of grace. He then knows which people will freely co-operate with his grace and which will freely reject his grace. He therefore predestines according to peoples’ foreseen merits and demerits. It’s still predestination because God freely lays out a definite order of grace.

What we cannot accept is that God predestines others to hell without consideration of their foreseen demerits. This is double-predestination and where Calvinism goes wrong.

 

[Telestia]

[Deletions by me] … So I, would like to hear the protestant justification for Predestination.

Augustine believed in Predestination and many early church fathers believed in Predestination. Many clergy were upset with him. “Why do we bother wasting our time by evangleizing pagans to convert to Christianity if all the saved are destined to be saved anyway.”

I believe in Predestination, Here is why:

Rom 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. NASU

Our justification is not because we stopped sinning. God knows we will sin throughout our life. For instance -

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

Where in this scripture does it say we must make ourselves become sinless? Does not John declare that if we say we have not sinned, We make Him a liar and His word is not in us? Jesus died in our place, His blood washes away our sins, once and forever. It does not mean we can now practice sin, but we must remember our humanity in that we do sin.

**For ‘If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.’

But ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’**

** Eph 1:3-14 **

Lets break these versus into sentences.

**4. He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. **

God knew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world [cosmos], and that we would be Holy and Blameless before Him

5. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

We were predestined to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to His kind will.

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

And this God freely bestowed upon us in Jesus.

**7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace **

In Jesus we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of our sins, by His rich graces we are redeemed

**8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight **

It’s a gift to us, well planned out before time.

**9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him **

He revealed this truth of his kind intention through Jesus Christ

10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

According to God’s timing and plan etc.

**11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, **

We Have Obtained an inheritance, as predestined according to God’s will, work, and purpose

12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

The early Christians receiving the fulfillment of the above plans of God first.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

We listened to the message of truth (gospel), and we believed Jesus’s message, we were sealed in Jesus with the Holy Spirit Jesus promised us (the indwelling Paraclete, God in me).

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

The Holy Spirit in us is Jesus’s pledge (Security down payment) of our inheritance until (the time of) the full ransom of Jesus’s acquisition of us unto the praise of His glory.

Please note from the Greek:

"[from verse 13 - our being sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise = which in verse 14] is the pledge (from the greek meaning - part of the purchase property given in advance as security for the rest) of our inheritance until the redemption of the acquisition.

Jesus paid the price for us on the cross, He sealed us as His possession by giving us the indwelling Holy Spirit, and He will give us our great inheritance when He redeems His acquisition of us at His 2nd coming.

If this is so, why do we have to go to all the world, to share the gospel (i.e. Good News) of Jesus Christ. We do so because Jesus instructed we Christians to announce the Gospel of Jesus Christ, His very words, to all peoples, so that all His Children will hear His voice, and they will recognize Him and come to Him and believe the Gospel, in their hearts and in their mind, and become a child of God. This is the great commision Jesus gave to us. When we speak Jesus words, His children will recognize His voice, and they will come to Him…

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[Capuchinfan1337]

"but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.-1 Corinthians 9:27

1 Corinthians 10:12
“Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”

Phillipians 2:12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

2 Corinthians 2:15: For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,

Also with sola scriptura interpretation: Numbers 24:8: The Lord brought him out of Egypt; he hath the strength of a UNICORN.-Using sola scriptura, we can conclude that unicorns are real creatures, not imaginary.

Revelation 20:13: And the sea gave up the dead in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.- Using sola scriptura, we can conclude that the dead will be judged according to their works

Also, when the bible was compiled with the original 73 books in the 4th century being transcribed from Greek to Latin by the Councils of Rome, Hippo, and Carthage.

Speaking of the false “once saved, always saved” theory, Paul directly refutes it in Hebrews 10: 26-29, when he says that if you deliberately sin after being sanctified by grace, then you can expect nothing less than an ordeal of fire, because you have profaned the blood of the covenant (the Holy Eucharist) by which you were sanctified, and outraged the Holy Spirit. That certainly doesn’t sound like once saved, always saved, and in fact, backs up St. Peter in 2 Peter 2:20-22.

 

[Capuchinfan1337]

Augustine believed in Predestination and many early church fathers believed in Predestination. Many clergy were upset with him. “Why do we bother wasting our time by evangleizing pagans to convert to Christianity if all the saved are destined to be saved anyway.”

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In this way, official Church teaching never accepted the more extreme tendencies of Augustine in the area of predestination into which some - but certainly not all - of his theological references wandered.

This extreme position on predestination is reflected only in parts of voluminous writings of Augustine.

Some of the range of his thinking on this subject was written while Augustine was in heated argumentation against Pelagianism.

Did he begin debating with the Pelagians before his theological stance was clearly formulated - a rather risky or intemperate “thinking aloud”?

Caught up in the passion of debate, did he sometimes exaggerate his position by using “debater’s licence” at the expense of a more calm theological accuracy?

Not even his most faithful pupils, Prosper and Fulgentius, followed Augustine in all of his exaggerations on this matter.

Accordingly, Augustinian scholars find it impossible to be sure just how much Augustine personally believed the most extreme aspects of his various references to predestination; he apparently did not hold to them permanently.

More often, the possible exaggerations and errors of Augustine in this matter are cited as a prime example of the fact that even the greatest of the Church Fathers are human and make mistakes.

Augustine was himself aware of this, and at the end of his life published his Retractiones and was working on a revised version of his works, rejecting some entirely and modifying others in accordance with his more mature later views.

Had he lived longer, possibly he would have removed many of the more dubious sections of his writings.

From the Protestant Reformation dates the beginning of the tendency to give the name Augustinianism narrowly to a limited body of pessimistic doctrines about grace, predestination and original sin.

The Catholic Church retained an ancestral reverence for his name and teachings, but found itself increasingly compelled to disown in controversy specific propositions for which support could be found by its adversaries like Martin Luther and John Calvin in the writings of Augustine himself.

 

[Telestia]

Dear Capuchinfan1337

Your denunciation of Augustine is misguided on predestination. I’m not defending the teachings of Augustine, I am expounding exactly what Scripture actually teach about Predestination. Which I share with Augustine.

I provided the information from the teachings of the Apostles of Jesus on Predestination, which are part and parcel of the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Words have meaning.

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For whom God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will."

This true extreme position on predestination is taken by all who reject what scripture has so clearly and plainly state about the reality of predestination. Predestination is a biblical doctrine well based upon Scripture.

The word translated “predestined” in the Scriptures are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordained,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.

According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

What is unclear is the future of those who are not predestined at this time. Perhaps they will be saved in an age to come. Or simply God planted good seeds, and Satan planted evil seeds.

From **John 6:44 **

**44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. **

From Matthew’s Gospel:** Matthew 13:24-35**

**24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."

The Tares Explained

**Matthew 36-40

36 “Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.”**

This is Predestination, for God chose us, His children, before He created the Heavens and Earth. Jesus proclaimed that He is the good Shepherd, and that He did not lose even one of His sheep.

John 10:1-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Parable of the Good Shepherd

**10 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.**

 

[Capuchinfan1337]

You confuse predestination with preordination.

net-abbey.org/pre-destination-catholic.htm

If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.
Council of Trent, Canon VI of the Decrees on Justification
God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1037
Because God predestines no one to hell, Catholics believe He gives His Grace, through Christ, to everyone and calls every one, no exception, to salvation.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men.
Titus 2:11
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:22
“‘All men are called to this catholic [universal] unity of the People of God…. And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.‘
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 836

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/predestination-in-catholicism/

catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html

 

[Telestia]

You confuse predestination with preordination. QUOTE]

No I did not.

Here is the dictionary definition of preordination: (of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine.

My best wishes toward your new Pope, Pope Francis.