Predestination

[Donaxtus]

The very thought of predestination terrifies me. I think I am conversant with Catholic teaching on the matter: you are predestined but then again maybe not. Authors on this subject seem to wax eloquent and quote numerous theologians and Counsels without ever truly answering the question in understandable terms. I only have three university degrees and some reading behind me and therefore can only understand plain English. A PhD will tell me that since I don’t have a PhD I should shut up and obey since they have spent a great deal of time learning more and more about less and less and end up unable to explain what little they know. I will not shut up and it is I who decides to obey or not. This question of predestination, although esoteric, is vitally important. For God’s sake if one is already saved or damned and cannot do anything about it why bother either way? What would I say to a catecumen or casual inquirer? If one cannot answer a question should one just ramble on until other other guy falls asleep or just walks away? I am one who will accept the retort that this or that is simply an unknowable mystery, but I would so greatly appreciate a reading source that would clearly (if possible) outline the truth on this such that I could explain it to my catecumen and new God Daughter and whoever else wants to listen.
Donaxtus

 

[andy92]

Simply put: Predestination removes free will. Pre means we don’t have the ability to chose our path. And if there is no free will then why have earth. If God is going to force us into heaven why not force us to worship Him.

Predestination=no free will=no reason to be tempted on Earth=no ability to sin

 

[RocketRM]

Donaxtus - what you are mentioning is not predestination but double predestination and I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is a frightening concept. Thankfully it’s incorrect and a heresy.

Andy92 - the Church actually has always support predestination (the protestant reformation simply put this concept into a hyper crazy understanding) because it is a natural outcome of our omnipotent God.

This does not mean that God is chosing an individual to be damned rather God knows who will accept His saving grace (which is our Free Will to chose to follow or to reject).

See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=88730 for more information.

 

[dee_burk]

The very thought of predestination terrifies me. I think I am conversant with Catholic teaching on the matter: you are predestined but then again maybe not. Authors on this subject seem to wax eloquent and quote numerous theologians and Counsels without ever truly answering the question in understandable terms. I only have three university degrees and some reading behind me and therefore can only understand plain English. A PhD will tell me that since I don’t have a PhD I should shut up and obey since they have spent a great deal of time learning more and more about less and less and end up unable to explain what little they know. I will not shut up and it is I who decides to obey or not. This question of predestination, although esoteric, is vitally important. For God’s sake if one is already saved or damned and cannot do anything about it why bother either way? What would I say to a catecumen or casual inquirer? If one cannot answer a question should one just ramble on until other other guy falls asleep or just walks away? I am one who will accept the retort that this or that is simply an unknowable mystery, but I would so greatly appreciate a reading source that would clearly (if possible) outline the truth on this such that I could explain it to my catecumen and new God Daughter and whoever else wants to listen.
Donaxtus

i started a thread on predestination before and from what i have come to understand is converts have one definition of predestination but it is not the same predestination that Catholics use. they are not even in the same ballpark. here is how my simple little mind has defined them:

Catholic predestination - God knows what decisions a person will make in their lifetime, therefore, God already knows who will be in Heaven and Hell.

Protestant predestination - before you are born, God has made the determination that a person will go to Heaven or Hell. (Catholics call this double predestination and i cant explain where that name came from).

 

[dshix]

i started a thread on predestination before and from what i have come to understand is converts have one definition of predestination but it is not the same predestination that Catholics use. they are not even in the same ballpark. here is how my simple little mind has defined them:

Catholic predestination - God knows what decisions a person will make in their lifetime, therefore, God already knows who will be in Heaven and Hell.

Protestant predestination - before you are born, God has made the determination that a person will go to Heaven or Hell. (Catholics call this double predestination and i cant explain where that name came from).

You’ve got it right, but have a confusion in terms. “Catholic predestination,” as you call it, is actually “foreknowledge.”

God knows what will happen, but does not force it to happen.

On a side note, this is in the wrong forum.

 

[dee_burk]

Sorry, dont know if it can be moved or just deleted since its in the wrong area.

dshix - foreknowledge is, IMO, a better description indeed. but there are a few who argued on the other thread so i just separated it in my brain to conform…

 

[dshix]

Sorry, dont know if it can be moved or just deleted since its in the wrong area.

dshix - foreknowledge is, IMO, a better description indeed. but there are a few who argued on the other thread so i just separated it in my brain to conform…

'tis in the right forum now.

Ah, I see what you mean. Makes sense.

 

[JD27076]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 9:20-24[/BIBLEDRB]

Apparently, the argument is that the potter has control over the clay and the clay doesn’t have a word in anything…

What does this mean?

Does this contradict Free Will?

Also think about this verse [BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 45:7[/BIBLEDRB]

He brings light and darkness,
peace and evil?
Could this mean he brings salvation and sin?

Help explain.
Thank you!

 

[jericho777]

The very thought of predestination terrifies me. I think I am conversant with Catholic teaching on the matter: you are predestined but then again maybe not. Authors on this subject seem to wax eloquent and quote numerous theologians and Counsels without ever truly answering the question in understandable terms. I only have three university degrees and some reading behind me and therefore can only understand plain English. A PhD will tell me that since I don’t have a PhD I should shut up and obey since they have spent a great deal of time learning more and more about less and less and end up unable to explain what little they know. I will not shut up and it is I who decides to obey or not. This question of predestination, although esoteric, is vitally important. For God’s sake if one is already saved or damned and cannot do anything about it why bother either way? What would I say to a catecumen or casual inquirer? If one cannot answer a question should one just ramble on until other other guy falls asleep or just walks away? I am one who will accept the retort that this or that is simply an unknowable mystery, but I would so greatly appreciate a reading source that would clearly (if possible) outline the truth on this such that I could explain it to my catecumen and new God Daughter and whoever else wants to listen.
Donaxtus

You have to ask yourself why the specific word is used that literally means “I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand” in the first place. It seems to me the plain simple wording of scripture in context tells us it is God who through His sovereign will chooses according to His good pleasure. Eph 1 5:-6 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he has made us accepted in the beloved.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.

 

[adrift]

The footnotes in my Douay Version had this:

St John Chrysostom says, “St. Paul here so speaks not by way of denying free will but to show to what extent we are to submit to God. For we should be no more ready to demand reasons from God than the clay vessel”(Hom. 16 on Romans)

 

[JD27076]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:29-30[/BIBLEDRB]

This was also given to me which really looks like it supports predestination.
Can someone help explain.

Sorry to put so many verses for Catholics to refute… but its an issue. Even if its not fully refuted, I still believe in Free Will as the Church teaches it should.

 

[ccmnxc]

Here is a thread from a couple days ago, addressing the same question: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=772047

 

[gordonh]

I have been involved in a discussion about this on another forum, and are the Calvinists very determined to push their view on double predestination to anyone who will listen. The problem is that the only way they can make Romans 9 say this is by taking it out of context and throwing away the rest of Romans and other scripture that states all will be justified by faith.
One of the opponents of the Calvinistic view said that to prove their view on double predestination they have to twist scripture like a wax nose to make it fit their theology. I totally agree with him.

 

[Nita]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:29-30[/BIBLEDRB]
.

Some read things into this verse that simply are not there.
The verse does indeed say that God predestines some.
But *it does not say *that only those who are predestined can be saved (justified and glorified) or that one must be predestined in order to be saved.

If I’m not mistaken, Calvinists believe that only those predestined by God to glory will get to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[steve_b]

The very thought of predestination terrifies me. I think I am conversant with Catholic teaching on the matter: you are predestined but then again maybe not. Authors on this subject seem to wax eloquent and quote numerous theologians and Counsels without ever truly answering the question in understandable terms. I only have three university degrees and some reading behind me and therefore can only understand plain English. A PhD will tell me that since I don’t have a PhD I should shut up and obey since they have spent a great deal of time learning more and more about less and less and end up unable to explain what little they know. I will not shut up and it is I who decides to obey or not. This question of predestination, although esoteric, is vitally important. For God’s sake if one is already saved or damned and cannot do anything about it why bother either way? What would I say to a catecumen or casual inquirer? If one cannot answer a question should one just ramble on until other other guy falls asleep or just walks away? I am one who will accept the retort that this or that is simply an unknowable mystery, but I would so greatly appreciate a reading source that would clearly (if possible) outline the truth on this such that I could explain it to my catecumen and new God Daughter and whoever else wants to listen.
Donaxtus

Your beef is with Calvin and his screwed up understanding of predestinartion. iow you have a problem with Predestinarianism which is a heresy

 

[steve_b]

Simply put: Predestination removes free will. Pre means we don’t have the ability to chose our path. And if there is no free will then why have earth. If God is going to force us into heaven why not force us to worship Him.

Predestination=no free will=no reason to be tempted on Earth=no ability to sin

you’re describing Predestinarianism which is a heresy

 

[thenobes]

Romans 8:29-30 (Douay Rheims)

I think the key word is foreknew. In other words, God knows who will respond to His Grace and who will not. The first statement above means that God is not obligated in any way to provide a path of holiness (good vessel) for someone who is going to respond negatively to His overtures of Grace.

And in the second sentence, it is saying that God, once knowing us, and preparing a path of holiness for us, calls us by grace, leading to our justification, and to the living out of the life of Grace within us (glorification).

The entire second sentence may be said to be referring to sanctification, that is, being set aside for the purposes of God.

peace
steve

 

[thenobes]

The main thing is, it’s God’s prerogative to choose how and when to stir us to be ready to accept his offer of mercy. Some are never able to accept the stirring to be ready. Some are always able to do so.

Again, it’s Foreknowledge of our Free will choices.

peace
steve

 

[Nita]

The Catholic understanding, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore He establishes His eternal plan of “prerdestination,” He includes in it each person’s free response to His Grace; …

 

[andy92]

Donaxtus - what you are mentioning is not predestination but double predestination and I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is a frightening concept. Thankfully it’s incorrect and a heresy.

Andy92 - the Church actually has always support predestination (the protestant reformation simply put this concept into a hyper crazy understanding) because it is a natural outcome of our omnipotent God.

This does not mean that God is chosing an individual to be damned rather God knows who will accept His saving grace (which is our Free Will to chose to follow or to reject).

See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=88730 for more information.

Just because God knows what we will chose as He knows everything doesn’t mean He chooses it for us. Free will is incomparable with predestination in the heretical sense.

i started a thread on predestination before and from what i have come to understand is converts have one definition of predestination but it is not the same predestination that Catholics use. they are not even in the same ballpark. here is how my simple little mind has defined them:

Catholic predestination - God knows what decisions a person will make in their lifetime, therefore, God already knows who will be in Heaven and Hell.

Protestant predestination - before you are born, God has made the determination that a person will go to Heaven or Hell. (Catholics call this double predestination and i cant explain where that name came from).

you’re describing Predestinarianism which is a heresy

Exactly, this is a thread about the heresy. Im not advocating it.

The Catholic understanding, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore He establishes His eternal plan of “prerdestination,” He includes in it each person’s free response to His Grace; …

You’ve got it right, but have a confusion in terms. “Catholic predestination,” as you call it, is actually “foreknowledge.”

God knows what will happen, but does not force it to happen.

God Know what we will chose that doesn’t mean He forces us to chose it. It is a mystery as how He can be out of time.
On a side note, this is in the wrong forum.

Catholic predestination - God knows what decisions a person will make in their lifetime, therefore, God already knows who will be in Heaven and Hell.

Protestant predestination - before you are born, God has made the determination that a person will go to Heaven or Hell. (Catholics call this double predestination and i cant explain where that name came from)

Greatest explination of what I meant so I copied it twice