Predestination

[ericc]

Fr William Most on Predestination.

There is no time in God, but one thing may be
logically before another. There are three logical points in His
decisions on predestination:

 1) God wills all men to be saved. This is explicit in 1 Tim

2:4, and since to love is to will good to another for the other’s
sake, this is the same as saying God loves us.

 2) God looks to see who resists His grace gravely and

persistently, so persistently that the person throws away the
only thing that could save him. With regrets, God decrees to let
such persons go: reprobation because of and in view of grave and
persistent resistance to grace.

 3) All others not discarded in step two are positively

predestined, but not because of merits, which are not at all in
view yet, nor even because of the lack of such resistance, but
because in step 1, God wanted to predestine them, and they are
not stopping Him. This is predestination without merits.

Full article.
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PREDESTI.TXT

 

[catholictiger]

the Catholic Church actually does teach predestination but it is alot different then the predestination you think. Normally when people mention predestination they talk about double predestination. Double predestination says that man is either predestined to heaven or to hell and no matter what we do we can’t escape this. This is heretical and very problematic in a moral life. You have no reason to live morally you have no reason to follow a set of morals. You can do what ever you want it doesn’t matter god has predestined you to heaven or hell.

But there is basic predestination not double predestination. God predestines all human’s to heaven, God predestines all his loved ones (which is every human being) to heaven, BUT we can deny our destination and reject God and send ourselves to hell or a separation completely from God. So God sends noone to hell because he is all good and an all good God can’t send people to hell but rather we send ourselves to hell it is our own fault that we go to hell. We have been completely closed off to the grace of Jesus Christ and because of this the saving grace of Christ can’t effect us and can’t save us because we aren’t open to it.

simply put God gives everyone the grace necessary to obtain salvation, so if everyone were open to it everyone would go to heaven. God because of this predestines that everyone go to heaven, but because some people are closed to God’s grace some people send themselves to hell and disconnect themselves from God.

its simple God can’t will that anyone goes to hell and he can’t not give people the grace to make it to heaven (based on simple philosophy and revelation) but we can be closed to God’s grace and this is how we go to hell.

 

[catholictiger]

You’ve got it right, but have a confusion in terms. “Catholic predestination,” as you call it, is actually “foreknowledge.”

God knows what will happen, but does not force it to happen.

On a side note, this is in the wrong forum.

This is how I believe God works in us without taking away our free will.

one question that comes up alot in Christianity is how can God have an influence on our lives without taking away our free will. I will try to explain it quickly

I believe and the Church teaches is that God uses the natural processes of life or the universe to bring about his will. Through the natural processes God brings about the good of all things and such.

The first evident of this is when we look at creation. God didn’t just create a universe when it first came into existence it already had galaxies, stars, planets, and so on and so forth, he allowed the universe to evolve in a natural process and through this natural process he created the Earth and created Man and brought salvation to man.

another example would be the conclave, its wrong to think that God sends down his Holy Spirit like a dove and he splits into 116 different birds and tells the Cardinals who to vote for. No through vatican politics, discussions within the College of Cardinals and so on and so forth brought about the new Pope, but God works through this natural process and brings about his will and keeps the Church together.

one other example would be the example of our lives. Lets say you have a college student who isn’t following his faith that much. God wills that he gets involved in his faith again. He finds out that the local Church has free meals every Thursday and he wants to get free food, he goes to get free food he meets some good Catholics, becomes good friends with them and starts to go back to Mass. Did God force him to go to the Church, no he desired to go there for natural reasons and he wouldn’t doubt that is the reason he went to Church is to get free food, but you can see the providential hand of God working through the situation.

There is an example in Augustines Confessions as well I think book 8 or 9 don’t remember what chapter, but he talks about how he ended up meeting Saint Ambrose, and how it was through natural reasons BUT God’s providential hand was working through the natural processes of life.

to put this simply, the reason God can influence our world and events in our life is because he uses natural processes to bring about his will. Like using the big bang to bring about the universe and earth, or how the pick the pope. We are always free to choose things and we have free will but God works through our natural selections and natural processes to bring out his will.

 

[jar_of_clay]

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 9:20-24[/BIBLEDRB]

Apparently, the argument is that the potter has control over the clay and the clay doesn’t have a word in anything…

What does this mean?

Does this contradict Free Will?

Also think about this verse [BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 45:7[/BIBLEDRB]

He brings light and darkness,
peace and evil?
Could this mean he brings salvation and sin?

Help explain.
Thank you!

What does this mean?

It means God choose the elect, the elect did not choose God. Two books on the topic that illustrate both sides of the debate are aptly named: Chosen But Free and The Potter’s Freedom.

Does this contradict Free Will?

Yes. There is no such thing as free will in the Reformed tradition. There is free choice, but not free will. The freedom of choice means that we can choose from among possible actions as determined by our nature. For example, since I am not a bird I cannot choose to fly. If man’s nature prior to regeneration is totally depraved (due to the fall), then man cannot (will not) choose God, repentance, etc. His nature does not (will not) allow that choice. God must intervene by regenerating man and giving him faith, which, in turn, produces the fruits of repentance/conversion.

Peace,

joc

 

[jar_of_clay]

Some read things into this verse that simply are not there.
The verse does indeed say that God predestines some.
But *it does not say *that only those who are predestined can be saved (justified and glorified) or that one must be predestined in order to be saved.

If I’m not mistaken, Calvinists believe that only those predestined by God to glory will get to heaven. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Actually the entire point of this passage is that those who are saved are the ones at the end of the chain: predestined, called, justified and glorified. The saved are the glorified. The entire chain of events is present for the one who is saved.

Peace,

joc

 

[jar_of_clay]

Is this not an open question for Roman Catholics? I am not aware of a definitive pronouncement on this issue. If I remember correctly a Catholic is free to accept either position.

Peace,

joc

 

[thenobes]

Actually the entire point of this passage is that those who are saved are the ones at the end of the chain: predestined, called, justified and glorified. The saved are the glorified. The entire chain of events is present for the one who is saved.
Peace,
joc

But salvation can be lost. “Glorified” as mentioned by Paul means being made into the image of Christ. It does not mean entering Heaven at death. Many are called but few are chosen.

peace
steve

 

[JamesCaruso]

Is this not an open question for Roman Catholics? I am not aware of a definitive pronouncement on this issue. If I remember correctly a Catholic is free to accept either position.

Peace,

joc

Catholics are not given freedom to believe in free will or not free will. Whatever one’s understanding of predestination, it cannot preclude free will. I could find cites, if you want them, but I have been Catholic long enough to know that our free will is essential to our being human.

To me, the term predestination only makes sense when it is viewed from God’s point of view. Since He knows your “free will” choices before you make them, He knows your ultimate destiny, hence predestination. From our point of view, there is always the opportunity to freely choose and therefore there is no predestination. Our definition of the term, predestination, is from a finite point of view, and from that point of view, it cannot be. God’s definition of the term, predestination, is from an infinite point of view, and from that point of view, it is a reality. We can choose freely, ergo, no predestination. He can see all our choices and final destiny, ergo, predestination. It’s like Einstein’s theory of relativity. Predestination is relative to the position of the viewer, from a finite perspective, or from an infinite perspective, from “in time” or from “outside of time.” That’s how I see it. YMMV.

 

[JamesCaruso]

A Jesuit once explained predestination with a concrete example. Two cars are rapidly approaching each other on a one lane road around a sharp curve. There is a sheer mountain wall to one side of the road and a sheer drop for thousands of feet on the other side. The turn is so sharp that neither driver can see the other, nor will they be able to until it is too late, but a man perched above them on an adjacent mountaintop can see both speeding vehicles. To the men, there is no foreknowledge of their fate, but the man on the mountaintop can clearly see what will happen. It’s a bit clumsy an example, but no finite example can ever catch the dynamic of living outside of time. Believing God does live outside of time, the infinite “I AM,” we can reason to many things that we cannot understand in human terms.