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Catholic_Dude
Guest
And everyone reading will notice how I have had a HECK of a time getting them to answer the question directly.
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B
Bishopite
Guest
A Thomist like me would agree that our will can be influenced without violating its freedom. Whether or not it is an effectual drawing I can’t say and neither can you.
Yes the Father draws us near, but also notice that it says “can come to me” which at some point either involves mans freedom to choose to come to Him.
Better yet, back up and answer the question whether or not Joseph and Mary have free will to choose God? Yes they could have chosen one way or another.
No, they were not “caused” by God. They were guided through their free choice, but God doesn’t force His will on anyone; that sounds to close to Islamic teaching (all due deference intended).
P
Pophead
Guest
I believe that you are understating the severity of the situation. Your question has been most inspiring. I suggest you explore my farmyard idea a little and read Hebrews 4:14-16.
Pophead.
T
tdgesq
Guest
What a great question. Let us see if Linkowski has an answer.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
You said:I believe that you are understating the severity of the situation. Your question has been most inspiring. I suggest you explore my farmyard idea a little and read Hebrews 4:14-16.
Pophead.
Sheep fall off cliffs, hang out with company that is not alway savoury, are in danger of being influenced to do stuff that is snake, wolf, pig, dog type, and should they be tempted and led astray, they might join a rival wolf gang who dress like sheep for a time, that is until they hear the sound of the Shepherd’s voice.
I interpret the above as saying if a sheep finds themself turning to a life of sin they shouldnt worry because the Shepherds voice will call them back sometime in the future. I see nowhere where you have shown my interpretation to be incorrect.
If you robbed a bank tomorrow would you be worried that your salvation was lost?
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Pophead
Guest
It really depends who owns the bank. If it was owned by other sheep (they might be merciful and let them off with a warning), if however the bank was owned by snakes - they would probably put a curse on the sheep and it would die. If however the bank was owned by wolves, they would send out a pack of wolves to kill the sheep. If it was owned by pigs, they would probably get a mean lawyer and make you pay the debt back for the rest of your life. If it was owned by dogs, I reckon that they would either hire a lawyer and see you go to jail for a really long time, or see that you recieve psychiatric counselling so that you might re-enter society a reformed sheep.
Sheep get dirty, sometimes very dirty, but the good Shepherd takes care of His sheep and ensures they are well fed and sees to it that they are regularly dipped. In the end sheep are sheep and occassionally man must eat…so if one does die, it is not the end, there is the afterlife, and from the way I understand it. The Shepherd has covered that by laying down his life for His sheep.
I believe that there are only two destinations in the afterlife. They are both permanent and eternal and one cannot move from one to the other. It is terrible when sheep do behave like wolves or other…it is hard to understand…and often a really hard thing to explain, but sinless perfection is not a doctrine I ascribe to.
One hopes that sheep will mature and learn to obey the voice of the Shepherd, but most often than not and certainly in these last days, sheep most certainly are being bombarded with all sorts of new and peculiar species…as there were in Noah’s time, but that is another story.
Pophead.
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Pophead
Guest
Did God cause Adam’s sin in order to accomplish His plan ?
I guess this really depends on what one understand by ‘cause’ - or ‘will’ - Not free will, but God’s will.
Pophead.
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gamesport
Guest
Wow! This answer with due respect sounds clintonian, lol
I suggest you seriously re-consider these things. Instead of trying to split hairs and plays games with words. like: "Not free will, but God’s will. "
M
mikeledes
Guest
Ezekiel 18:24True believers can never be corrupted ?
Let’s put it another way then. Sheep fall off cliffs, hang out with company that is not alway savoury, are in danger of being influenced to do stuff that is snake, wolf, pig, dog type, and should they be tempted and led astray, they might join a rival wolf gang who dress like sheep for a time, that is until they hear the sound of the Shepherd’s voice.
**24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. **
1 Timothy 3:6
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
Did Adam had free will? If he did not, then God is directly responsible for his sin.
God Bless,
Michael
C
Contarini
Guest
With all due respect, you think this because you have not thought deeply enough about this issue.
I suggest that you read some of the classic discussions of this issue, perhaps beginning with Augustine’s City of God.
“Cause” and “will” do need to be defined carefully. When we are talking about how God chooses and acts (which as jprejean recently pointed out on his blog can never be literal language, since God is timeless and unchanging), precision and nuance are necessary and not at all “Clintonian.”
I would say that God permitted Adam’s sin.
Try this thought experiment, if you really don’t see how complex this issue is.
God could have annihilated Adam after he sinned and created a new Adam, identical to the old one in every way, right?
If Adam really had free will (as we all believe), then this new Adam might not have sinned, right? (That as I take it is the definition of libertarian free will–that two people identical in every respect and placed in identical circumstances might choose different things.) If the new Adam did sin, God could have annihilated him too and created yet another, and so on ad infinitum. Eventually, God would have gotten to an “Adam” who didn’t sin (to say otherwise is, as I see it, to deny that Adam sinned freely).
Now, since God knows all our choices beforehand, He could obviously skip this whole tiresome process and *only *create the “Adam” whom He had foreknown would not sin.
Therefore, we must conclude that in some sense God creates people along with their foreknown choices. On the supposition of human free will, He could have created otherwise identical people who would make different choices. This leads to the paradoxical conclusion that free will demands rather than excluding divine predestination. Given the supposition of divine foreknowledge and omnipotence, the only alternative to the view that God creates humans-who-will-choose-x rather than otherwise-identical-humans-who-will-choose-y (and in that sense “causes” us to choose x) is to say that humans with certain dispositions in certain circumstances will necessarily choose x. This, and not the supposition of divine “causation” I’ve described, denies free will.
In Christ,
Edwin
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mikeledes
Guest
1) God loves the world/mankind
John 3:16
**16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. **
Titus 3:4
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
2) God does not desire the death of the wicked, but that they repent and live. His command to repent is universal, without exception.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Ezekiel 18:23
**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **
Matthew 23:37
37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
3) Jesus is the Savior of all men.
1 Timothy 4:10
**10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. **
1 John 4:14
14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
4) Christ died for all men.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours i.e. believers] only, but also for those of the whole world.
Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
2 Peter 2:1
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
5) Jesus will enlighten EVERY man
John 1:9
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 12:32
**32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." **
God provides sufficient grace to all, whether elect or reprobate, that enables them to accept or reject his offer of salvation. There will be those who reject it and never come to faith. There will be others who will accept this offer and be justified, but they will not die in a state of grace. There will be others who will accept it and persevere. These are those who have been predestined to glory.
God Bless,
Michael
John 3:16
**16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. **
Titus 3:4
4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
2) God does not desire the death of the wicked, but that they repent and live. His command to repent is universal, without exception.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Ezekiel 18:23
**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **
Matthew 23:37
37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
3) Jesus is the Savior of all men.
1 Timothy 4:10
**10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. **
1 John 4:14
14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
4) Christ died for all men.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours i.e. believers] only, but also for those of the whole world.
Hebrews 2:9
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
2 Peter 2:1
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
5) Jesus will enlighten EVERY man
John 1:9
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 12:32
**32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." **
God provides sufficient grace to all, whether elect or reprobate, that enables them to accept or reject his offer of salvation. There will be those who reject it and never come to faith. There will be others who will accept this offer and be justified, but they will not die in a state of grace. There will be others who will accept it and persevere. These are those who have been predestined to glory.
God Bless,
Michael
P
Pophead
Guest
I am going to pretend that you did not write this. The reason this thread has gone [quiet] is for one reason. [Not everyone knows] whether or not God plays the devil chess for the souls of men, or if God is a puppet master controlling the affairs of men down to the finest little flick of an eye lid, or if God is sort of like a funny fat man with a beard, puffing on a pipe and sitting on a mushroom counting sheep, while the big grand father clock in the hall winds down. (you know He pressed the button and went to sleep) … I had worked out one about a grocer, his evil son, and a disatisfied customer, but though it was just plain stoopid…
So [if you don’t mind] let’s have my look at my last comment again paleeez :
This was the question:…
Did God **cause ** Adam’s sin in order to accomplish His plan ?
And this was my reply…
I guess this really depends on what one understand by ‘cause’ - or ‘will’ - Not free will (that is about us) , but God’s will (that is about God )
I see that there was a reply, simultaneous to mine, so I just did a little alteration here and there. Now time for a break, I have to get my cap restored…it is month end…cheiow…
Pophead.
M
mikeledes
Guest
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cpayne
Guest
What the questioners mean by “cause” is efficient cause. Was God the efficient cause of Adam’s sin? The obvious answer is no. So what WAS the efficient cause of Adam’s sin? The obvious answer is free choice.
Genuine relationships only exist when both parties involved choose the relationship freely (even if one of the parties involved is irresistibly attractive when perceived as He is in Himself). If God created and annihilated Adams until He got the one He wanted, in what sense would that be a genuine relationship? In other words, is it really the case that one could have a genuinely free relationship that is absolutely guaranteed to have exactly the results one of the parties in the relationship desires?
M
mikeledes
Guest
Romans 9:18
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Whenever TULIP is questioned, Calvinists immediately turn to this verse in order to defend God’s right to “harden” or pass over the non-elect. While no one is questioning that God has a right to harden, I feel as if the Calvinists have walked into the middle of a conversation and have lost the nuances of that conversation. When we look at the general context of Romans, however, we realize that God is actually affirming His FREEDOM and Right to BE MERCIFUL. There were Jews claiming that, as the chosen people of God, they had an exclusive right to God’s mercy. The intent of Paul’s letter is to assert that being an “Israelite” is not the product of birth or observance of the Mosaic law.
Romans 2:28
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Also read Romans 9:6-8. This is the immediate context of Romans 9:18. Moreover, when God hardens (i.e. allows a person to remain in the state of unbelief they have chosen), the intent is to expand the scope of His mercy. Why did God “harden” Pharoah’s heart?
Romans 9:17
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Why was there a partial hardening in Israel?
Romans 11:32
**32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. **
The end of hardening is to expand God’s mercy. So we see, once again, that the main purpose of Romans 9:18 is not to assert His right to harden and damn, but to assert His sovereign freedom and right to be merciful. This is a response to those Jews who claimed that only the Jewish people had a right to God’s mercy and that the only way Gentiles could obtain this right was by being circumcised and obeying the Mosaic Law, thus becoming a member of the Jewish people. Romans 9:18 is remarkably similar to a parable of Jesus found in Matthew 20:1-15, especially verse 15.
**1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went.
5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
7"They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
13"But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14’Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ **
The Jews resented that God was granting the same mercy to the Gentiles that he gave the Jews without requring that they be circumcised or observe the Mosaic Law. Wasn’t the Law given to the Jewish people? Isn’t the Jewish people the chosen people of God? Then why does He give these “johnny come lately” Gentiles what should properly belong to the Jews who are the natural descendants of Abraham and faithfully observe the Mosaic Law? God answers, “Is it not lawful for me do do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I AM GENEROUS.” Another way of putting is Romans 9:18. So it amazes me how Calvinists frequently use Romans 9:18 to defend God’s right to restrict His mercy when the intent is really to assert God’s freedom to be generous with His mercy.
God Bless,
Michael
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Whenever TULIP is questioned, Calvinists immediately turn to this verse in order to defend God’s right to “harden” or pass over the non-elect. While no one is questioning that God has a right to harden, I feel as if the Calvinists have walked into the middle of a conversation and have lost the nuances of that conversation. When we look at the general context of Romans, however, we realize that God is actually affirming His FREEDOM and Right to BE MERCIFUL. There were Jews claiming that, as the chosen people of God, they had an exclusive right to God’s mercy. The intent of Paul’s letter is to assert that being an “Israelite” is not the product of birth or observance of the Mosaic law.
Romans 2:28
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Also read Romans 9:6-8. This is the immediate context of Romans 9:18. Moreover, when God hardens (i.e. allows a person to remain in the state of unbelief they have chosen), the intent is to expand the scope of His mercy. Why did God “harden” Pharoah’s heart?
Romans 9:17
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Why was there a partial hardening in Israel?
Romans 11:32
**32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. **
The end of hardening is to expand God’s mercy. So we see, once again, that the main purpose of Romans 9:18 is not to assert His right to harden and damn, but to assert His sovereign freedom and right to be merciful. This is a response to those Jews who claimed that only the Jewish people had a right to God’s mercy and that the only way Gentiles could obtain this right was by being circumcised and obeying the Mosaic Law, thus becoming a member of the Jewish people. Romans 9:18 is remarkably similar to a parable of Jesus found in Matthew 20:1-15, especially verse 15.
**1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2"When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3"And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went.
5"Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6"And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’
7"They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’
9"When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10"When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’
13"But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14’Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ **
The Jews resented that God was granting the same mercy to the Gentiles that he gave the Jews without requring that they be circumcised or observe the Mosaic Law. Wasn’t the Law given to the Jewish people? Isn’t the Jewish people the chosen people of God? Then why does He give these “johnny come lately” Gentiles what should properly belong to the Jews who are the natural descendants of Abraham and faithfully observe the Mosaic Law? God answers, “Is it not lawful for me do do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I AM GENEROUS.” Another way of putting is Romans 9:18. So it amazes me how Calvinists frequently use Romans 9:18 to defend God’s right to restrict His mercy when the intent is really to assert God’s freedom to be generous with His mercy.
God Bless,
Michael
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cpayne
Guest
That’s actually a nice explanation of that passage. I had not thought of it that way before. Thanks.
P
Pophead
Guest
Sort of like a shopping mall. Some folks take what is offered, others don’t and some just buy on credit. I suppose God owns the chain, but what exactly does God do ?
Sincerely,
Pophead.
P
Pophead
Guest
…whoops I did it again… 
M
mikeledes
Guest
What does God do? Who is the one that calls, provides the grace, and ensures the salvation of His elect? God! We know from Scripture that there we those among the righteous (i.e. justified) who will not persevere. This is especially demonstrated by Ezekiel.
"In Ezekiel, You shall llive means that God has deemed/declared you righteous and pleasing in His sight. Thus, it can never refer to someone who has not been justified by His grace:
Ezekiel 3:21
**21"However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself." **
Ezekiel 18:9
**9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD. **
Ezekiel 18:21
21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
**"You shall die ** means that God has deemed you unrighteous/wicked and God has not found you pleasing in His sight.
Ezekiel 3:19
19"Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity
Ezekiel 18:13
**13… He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death…" **
Ezekiel 18:23
**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **
God never says He shall surely live to anyone who is not righteous in His sight, to a person who has not been justified by His grace. Therefore, when we have a verse like:
Ezekiel 33:13
13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
God will never call a person “righteous” if they have not been justified by His grace and he would definitely not tell that person he shall surely live - a phrase only used in reference to the genuinely righteous and the repentant sinner - if that person is not pleasing in His sight and has not genuinely repented of his sins. That would contradict His express words. These passages are pretty clear and it contradict Calvinism. A genuinely righteous person can turn away from righteousness and die in that state.
God Bless,
Michael
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