M
mikeledes
Guest
Sorry, wrong website. This ain’t a Britney Spears fan site.…whoops I did it again…
God Bless,
Michael
- Status
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care. 
1 Corinthians 9:26
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 3:12-14
**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **
Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**
"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."
with Revelation 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
and James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation?
It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.
God Bless,
Michael
1 Corinthians 9:26
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Romans 8:12-13
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Philippians 3:12-14
**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **
Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**
"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."
with Revelation 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
and James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation?
It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.God Bless,
Michael
C
cpayne
Guest
Dear Pophead: A question just popped into my head, so to speak. If MikeLedes and others do not seem to be responding to your arguments, is it just because they were predestined not to do so? Or is it their free choice not to do so?
If they are predestined not to accept the concept of predestination, would you be fighting against God’s will by attempting to persuade them of the truth of predestination?
If they are predestined not to accept the concept of predestination, would you be fighting against God’s will by attempting to persuade them of the truth of predestination?
M
mikeledes
Guest
The word “choose” inherently means the possibility of selecting one thing over another, as illustrated by the following passage:
Deuteronomy 30:19
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, "
Isaiah 1:18-20
**18"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the LORD,
"Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.
19"If you consent and obey,
You will eat the best of the land;
20"But if you refuse and rebel,
You will be devoured by the sword "
Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken. **
If one does not have the ability to select one thing over another, then there is no real choice. If grace is irresistable, than sin and concupisence is also irresistible in the case of someone who is in the flesh. Then there is no choice involved either in the case of grace or sin. And if sin is irresistible, God’s call to the reprobate to repent cannot be sincere if he does not provide prevenient grace that enables them to choose grace over sin or to chose sin over grace. How can God desire the wicked to repent if He witholds the only means of potentially accomplishing that act, His grace? I just want to share another verse.
Proverbs 1:20-26
20Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
God Bless,
Michael
Deuteronomy 30:19
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, "
Isaiah 1:18-20
**18"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the LORD,
"Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.
19"If you consent and obey,
You will eat the best of the land;
20"But if you refuse and rebel,
You will be devoured by the sword "
Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken. **
If one does not have the ability to select one thing over another, then there is no real choice. If grace is irresistable, than sin and concupisence is also irresistible in the case of someone who is in the flesh. Then there is no choice involved either in the case of grace or sin. And if sin is irresistible, God’s call to the reprobate to repent cannot be sincere if he does not provide prevenient grace that enables them to choose grace over sin or to chose sin over grace. How can God desire the wicked to repent if He witholds the only means of potentially accomplishing that act, His grace? I just want to share another verse.
Proverbs 1:20-26
20Wisdom shouts in the street,
She lifts her voice in the square;
21At the head of the noisy streets she cries out;
At the entrance of the gates in the city she utters her sayings:
22"How long, O naive ones, will you love being simple-minded?
And scoffers delight themselves in scoffing
And fools hate knowledge?
23"Turn to my reproof,
Behold, I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24"Because I called and you refused,
I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;
25And you neglected all my counsel
And did not want my reproof;
26I will also laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your dread comes,
27When your dread comes like a storm
And your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,
29Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD.
God Bless,
Michael
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
So morality is relative?
Calvinism teaches that the elect can do no wrong and the reprobate can do no right.
But its still theft even if a “sheep” owns it. Im not sure what the “put a curse…and it would die” is supposed to mean.
Oh…I get it…dont answer the question directly but instead dance around the issue. :dts:
:whacky:
Its pretty clear the Calvinists around here cant answer simple questions. I have been in enough of these kinds of discussions to know how they react, it is not uncommon at all for them to flood the thread with meaningless distracting posts in hopes the issue will go away.
P
Pophead
Guest
Once upon a time a gentle Catholic apologete asked me what I believe. I explained my beliefs and he said (in doggy talk) ‘Phydeaux ye be a double headed predestinarian Calivinist’…I replied, ‘By gum fella, I never so much as read a thing by any guy called Jean Cauvin, and I have no idea what a double barrelled pedestrian is.’ He began to laugh and so did I.Its pretty clear the Calvinists around here cant answer simple questions. I have been in enough of these kinds of discussions to know how they react, it is not uncommon at all for them to flood the thread with meaningless distracting posts in hopes the issue will go away.
When the question was first asked, you know…Did God cause Adam to sin ? I asked, ‘Did God harden Pharoah’s heart.’ Now of course Pharoah hardened his heart, but then it also says that GOD hardened Pharoah heart…I suspect, God’s hardening was considerably more permanent than Pharoah hardening…but that is mere conjecture…or how do you say inductive, conductive, deductive reasoning…you get my meaning.
I was then pursued for an answer to the question. I am not God, must I answer every question. Why should we not look at the garden of Eden passion play and ask some more questions…like did God not give Adam a law to obey…(which he clearly could not and did not)…and who let the serpent into the garden of Eden…some guy by the name of George Formby, or what is Santa Claus…plus I asked a pretty fundamental question, why did God not stop the serpent from tempting Eve.
My question were regarded as some form of avoidance…how ? I am a double headed predestinarian, (who does not know how he got to be so ill) and all this anti Calvinistic, anti Catholic stuff…oooo, creeps me out a little…so I am walking on borrowed time … I hate religious people, they give me the creeps…and my feet get sore…too much heat, and demanding answers…
So, if you think that I was wrong in asking us to look at what is the doctrine relating to the ‘cause’…or better THE WILL of God. Is it passive ? Why do you say it is passive ? Is it decretive ? and why etc. Perhaps you believe God has two wills, or three or many.
Did God cause Adam to sin… I think He did. Was it a direct matter…well, that is another point. My problem with Calvinists is that they argue that man after the fall was completely spiritually DEAD. I have not the same conclusion from reading Genesis…I believe the death was progressive…then I might be wrong, but I battle with the Hebrew…you know…‘dying you shall die’…both dying and die are the same in Hebrew…which puzzles me.
I am not happy with Catholic Bible, because they footnote Scripture, and I am not happy with all of Calvins ideas, because he too like Augustine was involved in some dicey business and because of what they believed. So if you want to continue making anti Calvinist comments, and expect me to return in like by making anti Communist, I mean Catholic comments, you can forget it. I love Catholics and have a few good friend who are verligte volk, who are more interested in learing, that practicing ad hominen nonesense.
Right, I guess now you have enough to assemble a diagnosis, but be careful, I might just be spinnin’ a yarn ay ?
Sela Vie,
Pophead.
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Pophead
Guest
Hahahahaha… I am not attempting to pursue them… look at their posts… MikeLedes… short personalized stanzas followed reams of red and blue ink Scriptures and if anyone is pursuing anyone…check out Catholic Dude…‘Did God cause Adam to sin?’ ---- I hope my current answer will satisfy his insistence of an answer.
John 3:27 to the rest.
Pophead.
P
Pophead
Guest
It should be, she believes in pre-dress-tin-arianism
P
Pophead
Guest
Dear people,
Which of these two definitions best suits your own view :- ( or another … no matter.)
< I think this is the first time I have used old Rosy.
Blushing Pophead, goes off to supper.
people,Which of these two definitions best suits your own view :- ( or another … no matter.)
- God does not merely permit anything, but is the ultimate cause of all events. Everything is ordered according to his good pleasure and determination.
- God’s passive will may be understood as ’permissive.’ He regretfully permits many outcomes in history that he nonetheless hates. God permits many to go to hell, contrary to his active will.
< I think this is the first time I have used old Rosy.Blushing Pophead, goes off to supper.
C
cpayne
Guest
Even if one chooses the first of the options, for God to be the “ultimate cause” of all things does not make Him the efficient cause, or the proximate cause. If a highway patrol officer pulls you over and says, “Why were you driving so fast?” do you respond, “God”?
Even though God is the ultimate cause of your existence, that answer is not going to be satisfactory.
Even though God is the ultimate cause of your existence, that answer is not going to be satisfactory.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Those are fair questions, BUT the Catholic is careful to interpret them as not God causing or tempting Adam. The Calvinists I have talked to use those exact questions to say God indeed was behind the fall and that Adam had no free will though He somehow was not responsible.
I asked a few things from you and I the answers you gave consisted in what was a zoology lecture.
It is not “passive” as if He waits around to “see what will happen”. It is active, but that doesnt exclude free will of the creatures.
To Catholics, anything short of Adam having the free will to chose and making that choice to sin is unacceptable because it makes God the author of sin. Catholics dont agree with Protestants on the fall, primarily in regards to the fact Catholics believe Adam lost a superadded grace when he sinned (and fell to a “natural” state), and this grace needs to be restored, where as Protestants believe he fell from a natural state to a corrupt/depraved and where grace is not restored to the soul (at least for Justification).
First off the lousy footnotes of the NAB are indeed a sad sight, it was done by liberal Catholics (and I believe they will have some answering to do on Judgment day). They are not official teaching either. As for my supposed “ad hominem” talk, I dont recall doing such in this thread.
Your options are not quite accurate. God does not like sin, He was not happy when it occurs, but when He does allow it but makes sure a greater good will result. That being said He is not “passive” as if He waits around to see what will happen next, He sees and knows all.Dear
Which of these two definitions best suits your own view :- ( or another … no matter.)
- God does not merely permit anything, but is the ultimate cause of all events. Everything is ordered according to his good pleasure and determination.
- God’s passive will may be understood as ’permissive.’ He regretfully permits many outcomes in history that he nonetheless hates. God permits many to go to hell, contrary to his active will.
Predestination and free will are both true, it is not an either/or but rather a both/and. The fact God operates outside of time means such a claim is possible.
P
Pophead
Guest
The point is not whether or not a thing is satisfactory or not, it is where it is true or not.
I was a law enforcer for eight years and nearly six of those were spent in the traffic police. I was trying to imagine what I might have said, ’ Devil ’ and slapped him in irons.
I knew another officer, who would probably have arrested him and after an intense question and answer routine, would have either issued the appropriate citation, or referred him to the nearest mental institution for evaluation. (Of course one would take his details and make the neccessary phone calls in the next office, to ascertain whether or not this was someone who was medicated or not.)
Say for instance, he was not crazy and he was being absolutely serious. I might have said, ‘Checkmate’.
You have to realize that the mystics are hovering around this thread and ready to pounce at any minute. The life of a mystic (Christian or other), is pretty Zen. (If you get my drift.) You might here them saying stuff like, ‘In HIm we live and move and have our being.’
I just got of a forum where I was chatting to someone about how I used to think. I was essentially a horizontal Christian…basically I prayed, played my guitar and lived a very cold stone unemotional existence. What is is. The idea of what one sees being less real than what is unseen would have hardly appealed to me in the slightest. Experiences that followed that, sort of monastic in a personal sort of way, led me to conclude that what we presume to be all about this life, is infact wrapped up in an unseen world that is so alive and active that one would literally lose one’s mind if exposed to it for too long.
Paul’s blindness on the Damascus road, the effect of being in the presense of the transfigured Christ, Moses’ shining dome…well it was covered…for longer than it remained, might indicate to activity. It is not everyday that one is aware of these type of things…angels, demons, God, Jesus, and glory and majesty, and yet that does not mean that this realm is not impacting our existence more than we would like to imagine.
When something miraculous happens to us. I mean out of the ordinary we are quick enough to say…God…but because we are most of us…very fleshly…we cannot help that, it does not mean that our flesh…which is weak is not being manipulated by invisible beings…angels, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit…of course.
I know that the problem of degrees always comes a knocking…I think that this is where I take a step back…if you have been close up enough to know how you are known, you will realilze that it is all complete.
Popped my head…ew.
ps. I have heard people tell me all life long God does not exist, but I believe He TOTALLY exists…I guess it is matter of figuring out what that means…
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I hope your not talking about St Paul being a Zen master?
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
-Acts 17
C
cpayne
Guest
It’s not often I think of a thread as a complete waste of time, BUT. See you later, folks.
P
Pophead
Guest
Thank-you for replying CD (fun abreviation). I am sure we will be looking at each other on this subject for quite sometime. The topic is not only relative to predestination but to every facet of the life we live.
I used to think that my band leader was so authoritive when he said, ‘Some people are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.’ The years have passed by and looking back and remembering, I feel a little sorry for him. He really just did not get the progression of the Christian life; into something so dynamic and oppossite to the sin driven life of those who are outside Christ.
Our lives are hid with Christ in God. We are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. There is a dimension to this walk in the Spirit, this life in the Spirit that very few actually jump right in and stand on the side saying, ‘Don’t be so …’ It is not only the reprobate that tear strips of believers, but the fleshly minded Christians who cannot see or hear, or exprience the glorious life in Christ, that tend to reject the idea that miracles are happening ALL the time. They try to cool it all down…and say…‘Don’t be so…’
The degrees idea, or so much to free-will and so much to predestination, is where I spent most of my youth…but then I began to step up the programme and first started spending lots of time just sitting and waiting on God, in silence…that overflowed into a life that is filled with His thoughts touching mine so much… I never realized that the Lord had so much He wants to say to us…every second of the day…I guess I have been taught that prayer is me talking and God listening…and so I went about doing that…for years…then I started enjoying God all day, every day, because He came down into my life…instead of me trying so hard to reach up to him, through prayer graces…oh what a joy when we learn how much, He is involved in every aspect of our lives, I guess we like to think it is sort of a fifty fifty split…but that is how many think and they go from 16 to 60 and think that it is all about what they do…they never get to the part where Jesus reaches down and washes their feet…it is just a part of the true Christian life that is often never enjoyed…
Christ holds the very ether together upon which we are typing…if he were to let it slip once, our very existence would end…I mean the screen would disappear…to undestand to what degree He controls and restrains evil…the devil, and the world, can take long, but to understand to what degree He desires to be merged with us…composite oneness is another thing all together…
Nufff, it is eleven and I wanna chill.
I will read back tommorrow over what you wrote, if I over shot my mouth, I am sorry…you just got me buzzing…tanks.
Pophead.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
LOL…WHAT did you just say?Thank-you for replying CD (fun abreviation). I am sure we will be looking at each other on this subject for quite sometime. The topic is not only relative to predestination but to every facet of the life we live.
I used to think that my band leader was so authoritive when he said, ‘Some people are so heavenly minded that they are no earthly good.’ The years have passed by and looking back and remembering, I feel a little sorry for him. He really just did not get the progression of the Christian life; into something so dynamic and oppossite to the sin driven life of those who are outside Christ.
Our lives are hid with Christ in God. We are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. There is a dimension to this walk in the Spirit, this life in the Spirit that very few actually jump right in and stand on the side saying, ‘Don’t be so …’ It is not only the reprobate that tear strips of believers, but the fleshly minded Christians who cannot see or hear, or exprience the glorious life in Christ, that tend to reject the idea that miracles are happening ALL the time. They try to cool it all down…and say…‘Don’t be so…’
The degrees idea, or so much to free-will and so much to predestination, is where I spent most of my youth…but then I began to step up the programme and first started spending lots of time just sitting and waiting on God, in silence…that overflowed into a life that is filled with His thoughts touching mine so much… I never realized that the Lord had so much He wants to say to us…every second of the day…I guess I have been taught that prayer is me talking and God listening…and so I went about doing that…for years…then I started enjoying God all day, every day, because He came down into my life…instead of me trying so hard to reach up to him, through prayer graces…oh what a joy when we learn how much, He is involved in every aspect of our lives, I guess we like to think it is sort of a fifty fifty split…but that is how many think and they go from 16 to 60 and think that it is all about what they do…they never get to the part where Jesus reaches down and washes their feet…it is just a part of the true Christian life that is often never enjoyed…
Christ holds the very ether together upon which we are typing…if he were to let it slip once, our very existence would end…I mean the screen would disappear…to undestand to what degree He controls and restrains evil…the devil, and the world, can take long, but to understand to what degree He desires to be merged with us…composite oneness is another thing all together…
Nufff, it is eleven and I wanna chill.
I will read back tommorrow over what you wrote, if I over shot my mouth, I am sorry…you just got me buzzing…tanks.
Pophead.
Are these forums your little diary or something? A place for your poetry? Dreamland? Your own version of Christianity?
Im pretty much done with this thread because you dont seem capable of down to earth upfront and honest debate. Weaving in and out of questions, “answering” selectively with irrelevant comments, cracking open the personal diary, etc.
I have been in enough of these conversation to know when Protestants are screwing around with us. We pretty much know what to ask and what kind of answers to expect. Im not saying your not a good guy, all Im saying is the Gospel is serious business and dancing around the real issues is unacceptable.
P
Pophead
Guest
Okay, this is trickey one. I assume you have read the entire Old Testament … starting at Genesis and right through to Malachi, right ? Well, the one thing I do most enjoy about the Bible is that it places God right in the movie. He kills and He makes alive, He destroys entire nations, and He kills anyone who tries to come at Him. God is the giant paradox, the one we run from screaming, for in the New Testament he is the loving Saviour who only once got physical … and it is swept under the rug.
God is mean, and He is the war Lord of the Scriptures, mighty in battle, who rejoices when He defeats His enemies…When people asked me if I read the Old Testament yet, I used to smile and say, ‘I read quite a bit.’ Truth was I just did not want to know about the hard stuff…God the master of War, might in battle, who kills men, women and children who do not do what He says. It was just plain awful.
Now, wait up. It is not just that, … when we read the Bible, we say it happened then, but now God doesn’t really do that anymore. Because Jesus came and gave us free-will and now we conduct our own wars, and kill men, women and children…and GOD, he lets us figure it all out. I don’t buy that, because the Bible is a window into the supernatural, by which we see GOD interacting with His creation…for some reason or other, we just prefer to have a God of love…not a God who hates…we have this idea because we cannot imagine or see a God who could be unkind to anyone.
We hang onto the illusion that the God of the Old Testament is somehow dead and the New guy Jesus is how it all goes down now. We think that when a person dies, they just died. We might blame them for abusing their free will, or we might blame the Devil, back in the garden ay…but very seldom, do we blame God, and I mean that most respectfully…very seldom do we acknowledge that GOD played and active role in any happening…I read the Old Testament and God kills and makes alive, He gives and He takes away, He blesses and He curses.
It is pretty much like meeting the guy that wrote the play, and finding He also produces and plays the lead role. From what I understand is, He has some pretty important cargo protect and if we only knew half of it, we would probably go back to Sunday School and say, ‘Teacher, please don’t bother telling us about Jesus yet…’ Tell us about the man of war, this God who is so powerful that He controls the Universe, and is as Paul said…laymans terms, the very glue that holds the atoms together, the very force that holds the dna together…without God’s intergral part in our existence we are merely pawns in a worse force…one that is completely evil…SATAN.
As I said, God has cargo that He is protecting…
Night,
Pophead.
ps. I decided to read what you wrote and am most grateful that you took the time. I withdraw the ad hominen line, sorry.
P
Pophead
Guest
Come to mention it, it has been a long time since I took a trip to the Zoo…
Lions, cages, parents, children…the perfect place for a re-inactment of what happened in the Garden of Eden…all those years ago.
Yeah, give the Zookeeper off and make your teenagers Zookeepers. Set a particularly vicious and hungry lion out of his cage, who just happens to be a shape shifter and then tell your kids to stay away for the old Lion cage…oh, and to add suspense leave the door open and send everyone home…and then go home too, who needs supervision with those sort of odds…they are bound to make it on free-will or peanuts.
Pophead.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I firmly believe in divine providence and I personally have no problem with the God of the OT vs. the God of the NT. God is a loving a merciful God, but He is also a just God and sovereign.The only question I have is whether God is the cause of sin? Did God cause Adam to fall? Your response hasn’t been very clear.
Nothing catches God by surprise. There is a divine plan. But in this divine plan God incorporates the free will of His creatures.
God Bless,
Michael
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
Hi Mike,
Not gonna stay on this thread long it gets to frustrating and makes my head hurt, but the answer is NO. God’s predestination does not mean that we cannot make free will choices. God predestines in and through our choices because God is all knowing and all powerful. He knows what we will do because he knows all things. He cannot not know all things. So, whatever you choose to do out of your own free volition is known. But his knowing doesn’t mean you don’t free choose. Hope this helps.
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