Predestination

[cpayne]

God is outside time. He bases predestination on something. What is that something? Random cruelty? Or foreknowledge? Clearly foreknowledge

This means we are in agreement, correct? Couldn’t tell from the post.

 

[Melchior]

In the 16th Century Calvin put forward a false view of Predestination, which has become famous. He taught that from all eternity God definitely and explicitly chose some men for eternal life, and just as definitely and explicitly, other men for eternal damnation, his own glory being the end he sought. Nothing that man is going to do affects in any way that terrible decree by which heaven is chosen for some, hell for others.

As a necessary conseqjuence to Calvin’s heretical theory, we must say that God does not will the salvation of all men.

The fundamental error is its denial that God really wills the salvation of only the elect. We believe, and Trent taught, God wills the salvation of all and gives to all sufficient grace to enable them to save their souls; and if some lose their soul, it is due to their own rejection of grace, and not to God’s choice of their damnation.

This is the fundamental truth that must be safeguarded in every theory of Predestination, which a Catholic must hold. We may not say that there is a positive Reprobation of man antecedant to his sin; it is only because of his sin that God wills his condemnation; he has had sufficient grace, he has rejected it, and therefore God condemns him.

We have been over this territory once before. I am here to state the Catholic position, not necessary to prove it, except by the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

peace

Calvinism (I was a Calvinist for years) keeps being misrepresented in this thread. The vast majority of Calvinists, and Calvin himself were Infralapsarians not supralapsarians. They believe God actively predestines the elect and “passes over” or leaves the reprobate to their own devises, much the same as the Thomist view (with some differences). There is a minority who believe in positive reprobation but that is not “The Calvinist view”.

Just keeping us honest. This strawman explanation is not helpful to the discussion.

 

[Axion]

As I’ve stated before, the following three beliefs are held by all Catholic theologians on predestination:

**(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. **

Those predestined to glory (the elect) will infallibly receive the gift of final perseverance from God. This gift cannot be merited and thus ultimately depends on the sovereign will of God.

The Council of Trent says:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

This pretty much rules out the randomised predestination without reference to men’s free acts

 

[Melchior]

This is stating that God must be the author of all sin - which is the Calvinist heresy.

That is very annoying. I did not say that at all. Please don’t put words in someone elses mouth because you cannot understand the mystery of God’s sovereignty and man’s freedom.

Your issue is with Scripture, Augustine and Aquinas.

 

[Melchior]

God is outside time. He bases predestination on something. What is that something? Random cruelty? Or foreknowledge? Clearly foreknowledge

This is a fundamentally flawed argument. God bases it on His own good pleasure. He knows everything, so to say He bases something on what He knows is a logical impossibility. We know God is love and not cruel - plus no one believes this fake argument set up to be knocked down. Even if this were true it does not solve your moral dilemma because that would still mean God knew if He made certain people they would end up in Hell so it would be better if He never made them at all. Either way it still goes back to God. You cannot escape that He made people knowing their eternal destiny was the lake of fire, yet He still made them. God only knows why God does what He does. True faith says we accept the mystery, not try to apply some nonsensical explanation where God has seen fit not to provide one. St. Paul answers your very objection over and over again in Romans with “who are you O man?” The lessons of the book of Job also apply. We do not know why elects some and not all. The Bible does not say he elects based on seeing what we will do. It always emphasizes God’s sovereignty over His creation.

Anytime scripture speaks of our responsibilities and our need to believe it is speaking from the human point of view. Predesitination and election are from God’s point of view and a mystery. It is also Catholic dogma.

 

[Melchior]

The Council of Trent says:

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man’s power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

This pretty much rules out the randomised predestination without reference to men’s free acts

You keep making up arguments that no one on the other side is making or even believes (strawman). God is sovereign, not random - as if God ever acts arbitrarily - please stop making such arguments because no one, even Calvinists believe in the this random, cruel God you are insisting anyone who believes in predestination must believe in. Trent is referring to man’s perspective here, not God’s action.

 

[mgrfin]

Dear mgrfin,

I appreciate it that you as others on this thread do regularly assert what is the teaching Magisterium of the Church.

I am not a Calvinist and am not presenting the views of Jean Cauvin, only my own ideas as they have been stimulated by the study of the Scriptures and the reasoning powers granted me by Almighty God.

I intend to post one last comment and surrender to John 3:27.

As Scripture reveals a thin line of the progressive historical revelation of the redemptive plan of God, through the Lord Jesus Christ, I am certainly aware that very few have the clearness of mind and heart to understand that God not only revealed by the Holy Scriptures that He both decreed and foreknew all events relative to the Saviour, but also the death of a sparrow.

Where the greatest fear exists is the idea that God sins, which in itself is a great misunderstanding of the way in which God orders and controls all of life.

We get a glimpse of the hand of God in the temptation of Jesus, when Jesus is led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil and when Jesus at a particular time mounts a donkey to be worshipped by men, the timetable and the determination which Jesus fulfills every last detail, allows us the understanding that nothing - be it the men who blasphemed him, and smote him with their fists, was not clearly prophecied from the counsel of God. The thirty pieces of silver, satan entering Judas to complete his part, these unseen events are what the Scriptures give us light to see, but in only particular events, not to say that all of life is not so beautifull composed, orchestrated and then conducted by the One who controls the mighty waves of the ocean.

I will make my final post within 24 hours and out of respect post no more.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Pophead.

It would be nice if in your last post you stuck to the topic. I bellieve the topic is “Predestination”.

peace

 

[mikeledes]

This pretty much rules out the randomised predestination without reference to men’s free acts

The quote on predestination in my post is from the following Thomist website:

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

While God is not arbitrary in His dealings, complete predestination - grace and glory - cannot be merited and this is Catholic teaching. Here are a couple of other Catholic websites on this issue:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

Here is a quote from the above website:

**Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . . **

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Molinism:

newadvent.org/cathen/10437a.htm

And here is a quote from that article:

**Guided by this scientia media God is left entirely free in the disposition and distribution of grace. On His good pleasure alone it depends to whom He will give the supreme grace of final perseverance, to whom He will refuse it; whom He will receive into Heaven, whom He will exclude from His sight for ever. This doctrine is in perfect harmony with the dogmas of the gratuity of grace, the unequal distribution of efficacious grace, the wise and inscrutable operations of Divine Providence, the absolute impossibility to merit final perseverance, and lastly the immutable predestination to glory or rejection; nay more, it brings these very dogmas into harmony, not only with the infallible foreknowledge of God, but also with the freedom of the created will. **

While Catholics are obviously not Calvinists - we believe that God offers sufficient grace to both the elect and non-elect, that God involves man’s free will/ free acts in accomplishing His plan of salvation, and that the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the elect (i.e. those predestined to glory) - we are not Arminians either. Arminianism is a Protestant teaching rooted in Protestant principles. Here is a wikipedia article on Arminianism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pophead]

I bellieve the topic is “Predestination”.

Correct. I’m still busy examining the thread. I might post something in a day or two.

Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

Calvinism (I was a Calvinist for years) keeps being misrepresented in this thread. The vast majority of Calvinists, and Calvin himself were Infralapsarians not supralapsarians. They believe God actively predestines the elect and “passes over” or leaves the reprobate to their own devises, much the same as the Thomist view (with some differences). There is a minority who believe in positive reprobation but that is not “The Calvinist view”.

Just keeping us honest. This strawman explanation is not helpful to the discussion.

Thanks for making this clear.

Unfortunately unless one learns to see the will of God as one will, the idea of predestination deteriorates into something that is more like ‘the knowledge of good and evil’. (my opinion)

The oneness of God, is something that us mortals struggle with and will struggle with until we learn to be taught of God and not of men. ( I guess it is something we either accept or question.)

Some writings do more to confuse and having gone from being a severe Arminian to a Calvinist, first infra then lapsra…to a mystic and finally just a bee in a bottle…I enjoy reading peoples opinions, but have found very few who want to get to what is foundational. Luther thought Erasmus got to the core by discussing ‘free-will’ - I guess there is merit in that, I personally think that if one does not discuss the will of God, most humbly - we will pretty much be chasing our tales.

I hope that my 20c won’t wobble this thread too much…but that is all I have right now…maybe some passages to look up…for those who like reading Scripture : Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 14:24; 46:10; 55:8. Revelation 4:10 + 11. Romans 11:33-36; 9:21-23. Job 26:6:14. Proverbs 9:29. Romans 15:8. Acts 3:17,18; 4:27,28 and Romans 3:10-12; 9:17-21.

Good night sweet friends.

Pophead.

 

[cpayne]

The quote on predestination in my post is from the following Thomist website:

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

While God is not arbitrary in His dealings, complete predestination - grace and glory - cannot be merited and this is Catholic teaching. Here are a couple of other Catholic websites on this issue:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

Here is a quote from the above website:

Only incomplete Predestination to grace is independent of every merit (ante praevisa merita), as the first grace cannot be merited. In the same way, complete Predestination to grace and glory conjointly is independent of every merit, as the first grace cannot be merited, and the consequent graces, as well as the merits acquired with these graces and their reward, depend like the links of a chain, on the first grace . . .

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Molinism:

newadvent.org/cathen/10437a.htm

And here is a quote from that article:

Guided by this scientia media God is left entirely free in the disposition and distribution of grace. On His good pleasure alone it depends to whom He will give the supreme grace of final perseverance, to whom He will refuse it; whom He will receive into Heaven, whom He will exclude from His sight for ever. This doctrine is in perfect harmony with the dogmas of the gratuity of grace, the unequal distribution of efficacious grace, the wise and inscrutable operations of Divine Providence, the absolute impossibility to merit final perseverance, and lastly the immutable predestination to glory or rejection; nay more, it brings these very dogmas into harmony, not only with the infallible foreknowledge of God, but also with the freedom of the created will.

While Catholics are obviously not Calvinists - we believe that God offers sufficient grace to both the elect and non-elect, that God involves man’s free will/ free acts in accomplishing His plan of salvation, and that the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the elect (i.e. those predestined to glory) - we are not Arminians either. Arminianism is a Protestant teaching rooted in Protestant principles. Here is a wikipedia article on Arminianism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

God Bless,
Michael

I think I’ll print this out. Thanks for the clear exposition.

 

[Pophead]

While preparing to post a final post for this thread, I came upon this list of rather impressive Scriptures that seem to teach that God causes men to sin. What do you think ?

Lam 3:37-38, (KJV), Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? (38) Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Job 2:10, (KJV), But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

2 Sam 24:1, (KJV), And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, **number Israel **and Judah.

1 Chr 21:1, (KJV), And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Ps 105:25, (KJV), He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Prov 16:1, (KJV), The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24, (KJV), Man’s goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23, (KJV), O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Isa 10:5, (KJV), O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Ps 17:13-14, (KJV), Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: (14) From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.

Acts 17:28, (KJV), For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Prov 21:1, (KJV), The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

2 Sam 16:5-12, (KJV), And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came. (6) And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. (7) And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: (8) The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. (9) Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. (10) And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? (11) And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him. (12) It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.

More to follow…(in the next comment box.)

Love,
Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

cont…from above…

2 Chr 18:19-22, (KJV), And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. (20) Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? (21) And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. (22) Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

2 Thess 2:9-12, (KJV), Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Acts 2:22-23, (KJV), Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:25-28, (KJV), Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (26) The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. (27) For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (28) For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Isa 63:17, (KJV),** O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart **from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Isa 26:12-13, (KJV), LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. (13) O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

Ps 90:1-3, (KJV), Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. (2) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (3) Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

Love,
Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

“Man sometimes with a good will wishes something which God does not will, as when a good son wishes his father to live, while God wills him to die. Again, it may happen that man with a bad will wishes what God wills righteously, as when a bad son wishes his father to die, and God also wills it. The former wishes what God wills not, the latter wishes what God also wills. And yet the filial affection of the former is more consonant to the good will of God, though willing differently, than the unnatural affection of the latter, though willing the same thing; so much does approbation or condemnation depend on what it is befitting in man, and what in God to will, and to what end the will of each has respect. For the things which God rightly wills, he accomplishes by the evil wills of bad men,”–(August. Enchirid. ad Laurent. cap. 101).

“Great is the work of God, exquisite in all he wills! so that, in a manner wondrous and ineffable, that is not done without his will which is done contrary to it, because it could not be done if he did not permit; nor does he permit it unwillingly, but willingly; nor would He who is good permit evil to be done, were he not omnipotent to bring good out of evil,” (Augustin. in Ps. 111:2).

“Since the Father delivered up the Son, Christ his own body, and Judas his Master, how in such a case is God just, and man guilty, but just because in the one act which they did, the reasons for which they did it are different?” (August. Ep. 48, ad Vincentium).

“Who can refrain from trembling at those Judgments when God does according to his pleasure even in the hearts of the wicked, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds?” (De Grat. et lib. Arbit. ad Valent. c. 20).

These quotes from the writings of St. Augustine, certainly reveal that he believed in the unitary will of God.

Love,
Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

Can you see, what I see ?

John 19:9-11

And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Here is the commentary by John Gill, relative to the words of Jesus.

…meaning, not from the Jewish sanhedrim, whose court of judicature was in the temple, which was higher than the other part of the city; nor from the Roman emperor, or senate of Rome, the higher powers; by whom Pilate was made governor of Judea, and a judge in all causes relating to life and death; but reference is had to the place from whence he came, and to the decree and council of God above, and the agreement between the eternal three in heaven. Christ speaks of a power he had against him, that is, of taking away his life; he had no lawful power to do it at all; nor any power, right or wrong, had it not been given him by God: and which is to be ascribed, not merely to the general providence of God, without which nothing is done in this world; but to the determinate counsel of God, relating to this particular action of the crucifying of Christ; otherwise Christ, as God, could have struck Pilate his judge with death immediately, and without so doing could as easily have escaped out of his hands, as he had sometimes done out of the hands of the Jews; and, as man and Mediator, he could have prayed to his Father for, and have had, more than twelve legions of angels, which would soon have rescued him: but this was not to be; power was given to Pilate from heaven against him; not for any evil he himself had committed, or merely to gratify the envy and malice of the Jews, but for the salvation of God’s elect, and for the glorifying of the divine perfections: and to this the Jews themselves agree in general,

"that all the things of this world depend on above; and when they agree above first, (they say (s),) they agree below; and that there is no power below, until that דאתייהיב שולטנותא לעילא, “power is given from above”; and the whole of that depends on this:’’

Love,
Pophead.

 

[Pophead]

Dear CAF friends,

As promised, I would post my thoughts on Predestination. The work of Robert Higby, best expresses my own thoughts. In particular this article titled: ‘God’s Sovereignty in Hardening Reprobate Hearts’ … (I have pasted the three verses that preceed what he wrote, for they are to me most clear and thereby leave you the option to read his comments as per the link)

SIncerely,
Pophead.

“Therefore he has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.” (Rom. 9:18)

“Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?” (Rom. 9:21)

“Then I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, so that he will pursue them; and I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.” (Ex. 14:4)

 

[mgrfin]

Calvinism (I was a Calvinist for years) keeps being misrepresented in this thread. The vast majority of Calvinists, and Calvin himself were Infralapsarians not supralapsarians. They believe God actively predestines the elect and “passes over” or leaves the reprobate to their own devises, much the same as the Thomist view (with some differences). There is a minority who believe in positive reprobation but that is not “The Calvinist view”.

QUOTE]
No, that is not what Calvin taught. Calvin taught that from all eternity God definitely and explicitly chose some men for eternal life, and just as definitely and explicitly, other men for eternal damnation, his own glory being the end he sought. Nothing that man is going to do affects in any way that terrible decree by which heaven is chosen for some, hell for others.

As a necessary conseqjuence to Calvin’s heretical theory, according to Calvin, God does not will the salvation of all men.
You have it wrong: you say Calvin says God just leaves man to his own devices. No, no, no. It is much more than that. God chose some men for eternal damnation.

Let’s not let Calvin off the hook. Let’s not mention Thomas (or Augustine, for that matter) and the teaching of Calvin be mentioned in the same sentence.

peace

 

[Axion]

You keep making up arguments that no one on the other side is making or even believes (strawman). God is sovereign, not random - as if God ever acts arbitrarily - please stop making such arguments because no one, even Calvinists believe in the this random, cruel God you are insisting anyone who believes in predestination must believe in. Trent is referring to man’s perspective here, not God’s action.

You are denying the logic of your own position.

Basically the argument “Soveriegn choice” Predestinarians make is this…

• God predestines some to heaven, others not. (These others necessarily go to “the other place.”)
• This predestination is definitely NOT made on the basis of any merits, free-choices, works or otherwise of those people chosen or not chosen. It is made for some other reason, known only to God.
• However this is not cruel or random.

The logic here is extremely rocky. By ruling out a decision by God made on the basis of ANY possible free choice or attribute of the individual, the choice made is NECESSARILY either ranom or arbitrary. And it results in sentient created beings being cast into eternal torment for something that is NOT THEIR FAULT.

This indeed would make God both random and cruel.

 

[Axion]

This is a fundamentally flawed argument. God bases it on His own good pleasure. He knows everything, so to say He bases something on what He knows is a logical impossibility. We know God is love and not cruel - plus no one believes this fake argument set up to be knocked down.

It’s no use saying “We know God is love and not cruel”, when your very premise is based on God committing unloving and cruel acts.

It’s like saying “X beats his wife, but he’s never violent.” Stating a contradiction does not make it so.

Even if this were true it does not solve your moral dilemma because that would still mean God knew if He made certain people they would end up in Hell so it would be better if He never made them at all.

Not if He gave them Free Wil to choose to be with Him or not.

True faith says we accept the mystery

, Not when there is no need

Predesitination and election are from God’s point of view and a mystery. It is also Catholic dogma.

Actually in the form advocated here, they have been condemned several times

 

[mikeledes]

You are denying the logic of your own position.

Basically the argument “Soveriegn choice” Predestinarians make is this…

• God predestines some to heaven, others not. (These others necessarily go to “the other place.”)
• This predestination is definitely NOT made on the basis of any merits, free-choices, works or otherwise of those people chosen or not chosen. It is made for some other reason, known only to God.
• However this is not cruel or random.

The logic here is extremely rocky. By ruling out a decision by God made on the basis of ANY possible free choice or attribute of the individual, the choice made is NECESSARILY either ranom or arbitrary. And it results in sentient created beings being cast into eternal torment for something that is NOT THEIR FAULT.

This indeed would make God both random and cruel.

As a fellow Catholic, I’m sure you believe that one can fall from grace through mortal sin and if one were to die in that state, one would not have a very pleasant afterlife. Why is then, that God takes away a person from this life in that terrible state but allows another person to repent and die in a state of grace? Why is it that God grants the gift of final perseverance to some and not to others?

God Bless,
Michael