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Catholic_Dude
Guest
It is important to point out the root of this error is that Calvinists believe God predestined Adam to sin in the sense Adam had no choice but to sin.
This is simply unacceptable in Catholicism.
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This is simply unacceptable in Catholicism.
B
Bishopite
Guest
Yes both are permitted and I will try to explain it, although I’d have to brush up on the issue as it’s been a while since I’ve studied the two.
Molinists essentially believe most all of what Thomists believe as far as God predestining the elect to heaven. Molinists generally have an issue with grace being intrinsically efficacious; that is to say how grace operates within the human soul. Molinists say God give us the grace and at the point of God giving us grace, our free will chooses whether to accept that grace, then God gives us more grace if we accept it and then we are justified.
Thomists say God gives the elect efficacious but God established what will be freely chosen but in a way which does NOT intrude nor disturb the freedom of the human will and as Aquinas said.
And does so in a way that does not disturb the will’s freedom. Aquinas said that God changes the will without forcing in because God operates within the will as He does in nature.
Catholicism does teach that all people receive sufficient grace and if they respond (at this point is the issue between Molinists and Thomist on how God operates within the soul) then God gives them efficacious grace (which is saving grace) and then they are justified. I will try to brush up on it more, but I may stand corrected if another smart person comes along and corrects anything that I have incorrectly stated.
The two argued over how Gods grace operates within the soul.
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Here is a very interesting argument that I heard from Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong against Calvinism, Im paraphrasing:
1)All men are fallen, none deserve grace or salvation.
2)God is not random.
3a)Thus God must give everyone some opportunity for salvation.
3b)Thus Man’s response must play a role as to why some are not saved.
1)All men are fallen, none deserve grace or salvation.
2)God is not random.
3a)Thus God must give everyone some opportunity for salvation.
3b)Thus Man’s response must play a role as to why some are not saved.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Tah-dah! Whoops, that’s not me!
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gamesport
Guest
Let it be show from the very Scripture that Calvinist claim to believe in that their view of predistination is unbiblical. There are countless examples, but this one will suffice
“And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren” (luke 22:31-32)
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:31-32;&version=63;
Notice Jesus did not say. “Simon, you became regenerate, after your water baptism,and so you have been predistined by God and , therefore you will choose God.”
He actually prays for him recognizing that he could fail if not for God’s grace, and his own co-operation with that grace.
“And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren” (luke 22:31-32)
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:31-32;&version=63;
Notice Jesus did not say. “Simon, you became regenerate, after your water baptism,and so you have been predistined by God and , therefore you will choose God.”
He actually prays for him recognizing that he could fail if not for God’s grace, and his own co-operation with that grace.
C
Calvinator
Guest
I don’t think any person who has a knowledge of reformed theology believes that one of the elect can’t fall. So, I’m not sure if I see your point.
T
thistle
Guest
The Church teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.
CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:
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Linkowski
Guest
He did not “predestine” sin…he foreordained it…He allowed it to happen. Not only that, He planned redemption before the foundation of the world as well. He foreloved a people for himself and predestines them to salvation by calling and justifying them. This is not in accordance with the works nor with their will…Romans chapter nine makes this very clear.
Romans 9:10-23 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.Then comes the capper!!
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This is supported in many other places…
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Peter 1:2-3 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Timothy 1:9 KJV 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
He effectually caysed us to be born again…
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
etc…
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Linkowski
Guest
The Bible says that they cannot…
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
My signature says it all…
Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The Golden Chain cannot be broken.
C
Calvinator
Guest
I was speaking of falling into sin.
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
And, as expected, Pophead starts another thread that, at first, seems to be an earnest call for discussion, when in fact his motive is to proselytize.
Pophead, you’re not going to win any converts here through subterfuge. You probably won’t win any by coming out in the open and stating your opposition to Catholicism, either, but at least you’ll have some credibility.
Peace,
Dante
Pophead, you’re not going to win any converts here through subterfuge. You probably won’t win any by coming out in the open and stating your opposition to Catholicism, either, but at least you’ll have some credibility.
Peace,
Dante
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Election is in the Bible - as is predestination. Both the words, & the realities the words denote. (Calvinism would not have got far, if it it had not been right about many things.)
Whatever one makes of them, they are both Biblical, both in the NT, both part of NT teaching for Christians, & both glorify God. So neither can be ignored.Election is not even confined to the Bible - what was there in man to make him any better than the dinosaurs ? That’s right - nothing. The only ground of distinction is in God - not in creatures. Otherwise, there would be a sort of determinism - the freedom of God would be subject to, because determined by, His creatures. Which is to make God an idol.
What sort of “Almighty” God is that ? He becomes no greater or better than what He has made. Such a God is not God at all. And He is certainly not a God of grace, for grace is what He freely gives when there is nothing in the recipient to induce Him to do so: to be gracious, He has to be the Sovereign Lord & Transcendent Creator-God of every creature. Otherwise, Christianity is nothing but an illusion & a lie.
God has to come first, not human free will, otherwise one ends up talking about something that is not Christian theology - though it may well be “God-talk” of a sort - at all. All else falls into place provided that, & only if, God is given His.
The thread is doing nicely - I’m out of it, before it gets bogged down in misunderstandings. And holy & sublime things aren’t well dealt with if one disputes about them.
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Bishopite
Guest
This is so very true. To say that God predestines some to hell is essentially blaspheming a God who is love. If God is anything, first of all He is a God of love who allows our free choice.
B
Bishopite
Guest
Of course God draws us by His grace before we can be saved. However, we also have to draw near to God with our free will, our choice. Calvinists are fond of only pointing out the verses that support God drawing us near without showing our free will choice to choose Him or deny Him.He did not “predestine” sin…he foreordained it…He allowed it to happen. Not only that, He planned redemption before the foundation of the world as well. He foreloved a people for himself and predestines them to salvation by calling and justifying them. This is not in accordance with the works nor with their will…Romans chapter nine makes this very clear.
Romans 9:10-23 KJV 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Then comes the capper!!
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
This is supported in many other places…
Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Peter 1:2-3 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Timothy 1:9 KJV 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
He effectually caysed us to be born again…
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
etc…
How do you explain Mark 8:34-37?..
“He [Jesus] summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? What could one give in exchange for his life?”
**Jesus summoned “the crowd” with His disciples which would have been made up of believers and NON believers, so why would Jesus ask those whom were predestined to hell to “take up your cross and follow Me?” It would have been futile.
***When Jesus says “Whoever wishes to come after Me” “whoever wishes to save his life?” How could Jesus ask anyone to save their life if the are predestined unto hell?
Jesus is speaking to everyone present and Mark nowhere says it is only the elect.
B
Bishopite
Guest
But your signature only speaks of those who are predestined to heaven, it doesn’t speak of those who Calvinists falsely presume are predestined to hell.
Zechariah 1:1-3
"In the second year of Darius, in the eighth month, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah, son of Berechiah, son of Iddo: The LORD was indeed angry with your fathers. and say to them: Thus says the LORD of hosts:** Return to me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts. "**
Return to Me, says the Lord. This shows God allows our free will to choose to follow Him or not to return to Him. That He has foreknowledge about what will happen to us doesn’t deminish our free will choice to follow Him or reject Him.
Some Calvinists have attempted to show Augustine of Hippo as a Calvinist but here is what he said about free will…
“He who created thee without thy knowledge, but only with thy agreement and thy will does He justify thee.” (Sermo 169,II,13)
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gamesport
Guest
this actualy refutes you point, Peter here recognize that even if you are ‘chosen’ by God, you still have to “pratice these things” so that “you will never stumble” (in other words they still have the free will to practice these things, or they can choose not to)
Again Peter didn’t say. "well you have been chosen by God, so you can’t be ‘unregenerate’ or he didnt say " God has predistined you to never stumble. "
P
Pophead
Guest
Dear Friends,
A bad tree bears bad fruit and is cast into the fire, and good tree bears good fruit and inherits eternal life. Predestination is not based on this, it is the other way round.
One is either a sheep type, or a snake, wolf, dog, pig type and one is happiest being who you are. There is nothing quite as tragic as a snake trying to imitate a sheep etc.
Worse still is a sheep who behaves like a sheep…bad company corrupts good conduct etc.
There is not crossover or middle way, there are the children of the light and the children of the darkness and both are happiest where they are.
One small add. Both are expected to live good lives based on the goodness of GOD to have given them life at all no matter how short it might be, for this world.
Sincerely,
Pophead.
A bad tree bears bad fruit and is cast into the fire, and good tree bears good fruit and inherits eternal life. Predestination is not based on this, it is the other way round.
One is either a sheep type, or a snake, wolf, dog, pig type and one is happiest being who you are. There is nothing quite as tragic as a snake trying to imitate a sheep etc.
Worse still is a sheep who behaves like a sheep…bad company corrupts good conduct etc.
There is not crossover or middle way, there are the children of the light and the children of the darkness and both are happiest where they are.
One small add. Both are expected to live good lives based on the goodness of GOD to have given them life at all no matter how short it might be, for this world.
Sincerely,
Pophead.
P
Pophead
Guest
Correction: (to my last comment) <
Worse still is a sheep who behaves like a [snake-wolf-pig-dog variety]…bad company corrupts good conduct etc.
Pophead.
Worse still is a sheep who behaves like a [snake-wolf-pig-dog variety]…bad company corrupts good conduct etc.
Pophead.
S
steveandersen
Guest
Fortunately I’m not a wolf-snake-pig-sheep-marmot
I’m a man
I’m a man
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