Predestination

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[sandusky;2695217]
You understand that the Hebraic word “ra” can
have a multitude of meanings not just evil it can also mean woe or calamity or suffering.
The word “pray” also has differing usages like “ask” this is common with Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words and languages in general.
God does more with evil than simply “allow” it. I realize that you are uncomfortable with respect to saying God, and evil in the same breath; however, God uses evil—read the OT—and His use of evil is more than simply “allowing” it.
God allows evil, calamity and woe upon people but He didn’t create it nor doesn’t actively will evil. I’m not uncomfortable with using God and evil in the same breath although I would be uncomfortable with saying God is a Master without Him first being a Father who is love.

1 John 4:8 “The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.”

Habakkuk 1:13
“13Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor on those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked wallow up Those more righteous than they?”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son, that whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life.”

“The world” isn’t just the elect, but everyone.
God does not have to actively reprobate anyone; men are reprobate from the womb (Ps 58:3); that’s everyone ever born (Rom 3:23; cf Jn 3:18-19).
God also gives everyone the ability to know right from wrong in Romans 2:14-16.
Paul also speaks of the natural moral law of God .
Romans 1:19-20
19****because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made,** so that they are without excuse.”**
Romans 2:13-15
"13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, **15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them," **
God gives everyone sufficient grace in order to be saved so that no man is without excuse precisely because they have the law written on their heart; that is the natural moral law of God. To say God predestines some to hell is irrational and is in error.
A very stilted understanding of God that influences you to error. The writer of Hebrews says that it is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Why is that, if His “essential essence is love?”
Because to die in grave sin IS certainly terrifying. And you are trying to make the point that Catholicism (or non-Calvinist’s) teach that God is ONLY love. He is also a judge as a Father is a judge, He is a Master over us as we are slaves. And He is other things too, but He is primarily a God who is love. Love judges as a Father judges, love rebukes righteously, love condemns evil.
And because we ALL sin! We all lack something, divine grace and we all have a tendency toward sin. Our nature is weakened so that in our weaker moments we do fear God, but at times we also look forward to seeing God in His fullness. St. Augustine said, "our hearts are restless until the rest in You [God]
Yes,John 3:16, "God so loved the world…"
I disagree. One who sins is evil, and he is a slave to sin and evil (Jn 8:34); therefore, according to you, the one who sins is a slave to ”not a thing,” or "a slave to nothing."
Evil isn’t a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You can’t have a jar of evil. Evil is something that occurs, like running; it has no existence of its own. Evil = sin, sin = evil. Sin is a lack of something, a lack of divine grace, it is a lack of a good. Holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole and yet it can’t be separated from the dirt. Evil is not a thing, it is a lack of grace.
You’ve missed my point which was made in response to your analogy:If God did not will their eventual demise, He learned by observation; if He learned by observation, He is mutable; if He is mutable, He is not God.
God allowed their demise because He gave them over to what they wanted NOT what they were ONLY born to do. Romans 2:4-6
"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO
HIS DEEDS:"
Now you waffle, and say, ”If
God is truly love…”

Ha. I meant “if” only to prove the point. God is love 1 John 4:8.
An expression of a desire by God is not a decree of God.
True, however God couldn’t say in Genesis 1:3 “let there be light” and it NOT be.
God’s wish is not God’s decree; it is His desire.

Right. God desires all men to be saved 1 Tim 2:4, yet He also knows that all men won’t follow Him.
Wouldn’t you consider God’s work of justification a good work?
Yep.
 
**
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Pophead:
This seems to be a hurdle that you are struggling with. I personally understand that God is able to soften the heart, and harden it, as he sees fit to accomplish his will on earth. It is a little bit like a game of chess.
quote]

Struggling? I’m not struggling with Calvinism nor double predestination. I don’t follow nor accept it. :)**
 
Dear CAF friends,

While visiting my favourite apologetics site, with the idea of downloading a series by Dr. Don Carson, I noticed a kewl audio about, ‘The Love of God’, where he explores the Justice of God. (just right click and save to target.)

Thanks again for the excellent participation on this thread and I look forward to posting again once I am settled in England.

Love,
Pophead.
 
Now, since God knows all our choices beforehand, He could obviously skip this whole tiresome process and *only *create the “Adam” whom He had foreknown would not sin.

Therefore, we must conclude that in some sense God creates people along with their foreknown choices. On the supposition of human free will, He could have created otherwise identical people who would make different choices.
I have been unable to post for a week now else I would have addressed this sooner. Although I agree with the second sentence, I disagree with the first and third. I believe that the proposition that God could have created an otherwise identical Adam who would have made a different choice is logically inconsistent with man’s free will.

There are three items in play anytime the free will discussion comes up: God’s goodness, His omniscience, and His omnipotence. The last one is implicated here. I deny that God can create a state of affairs that is logically inconsistent. Some would say that this means that God is not omnipotent, but I would argue that it has never been the Christian understanding of omnipotence to attribute to God the power to engage in logical contradictions.

If what you have said is true about God’s creation of Adam and the possibility of him creating an identical Adam that would not have sinned, then you must deal with the implications from the perspective of God’s goodness and the problem of evil.
 
How do you distinguish the two, namely, that God is not the author of sin but he decreed it? Also, if Adam was created without a sin nature, how did God execute His decree (i.e the Fall), without actively causing Adam to sin? Wouldn’t that make Adam’s choice to sin no longer a free choice, but one forced upon him by God?

God Bless,
Michael
Exactly.

I really think people are failing to understand the concept of Free Will, and trying to make THAT deterministic too.
 
Exactly.

I really think people are failing to understand the concept of Free Will, and trying to make THAT deterministic too.
Deterministic free will and how grace operates within mans soul, what kind of grace God gives us in our initial justification and is the type of that original grace that is irresistable, is the dissagreement between Molinists and Thomists. How ones free will is affected by God initially giving us grace we don’t realy know. Aquinas said Gods grace is intrinsically efficacious by its very nature.because of the type of grace it is.
Aquinas said, “God’s intention cannot fail… Hence if God intends, while moving it, that the one whose heart he moves should attain to grace, he will infallibly attain to it, according to John 6:45, ‘Everyone that has heard and learned from the Father comes to me."(ST I-II:112:3)
Molinists say God’s enabling grace is sufficient and made efficacious by the human free will, man’s free choice. Either way is acceptable to a Catholic.
We all agree that God predesitines the elect to heaven, scripture is very clear on thatl Aquinas, Augustine taught it long before John Calvin. What we deny is that God created evil or actively wills evil against people. To allow evil to happen isn’t the same as to will it.

I looked up “decree” in Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary and decree as a verb where it can mean to decree a punishment. Sure God can decree a punishment upon those who freely choose to disobey because God is also just and His justice is perfect. God is also a Father who chasens those whom He loves, yet God so loved “the world that He gave His only begotton Son.”

2 : to determine or order judicially <decree a punishment>
m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
 
Dear CAF friends,

While visiting my favourite apologetics site, with the idea of downloading a series by Dr. Don Carson, I noticed a kewl audio about, ‘The Love of God’, where he explores the Justice of God. (just right click and save to target.)

Thanks again for the excellent participation on this thread and I look forward to posting again once I am settled in England.

Love,
Pophead.
God’s speed and Bon Voyage! 🙂
 
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