Pregnancy? Try for, or Postpone, how do U discern?

[Black_Jaque]

How do you discern whether you should have another child or not? (or just a child)

I’m interested in opening some discussion on the factors that should be considered in making the decision. What factor have weighed heavily in your decisions?

NOTE: Please, please refrain entirely from making this into an issue of whether you are sinning one way or the other. The topic is discernment, assume we are all trying to figure out what God wants from us - therefore sin is not possible.

Factors I can think of:

#1 I desire/don’t desire a child.

#2 My spouse desires/doesn’t desire a child

#3 My parents/in-laws want more grandkids/ they think we’re crazy having more

#4 To give our current children another sibling/ To give our family a chance to move on and focus on educating the children we already have

#5 My spouses health/My own health

#6 Man! He’s/She’s just looking so hot right now!

#7 This nation is going to need someone to run the show when we’re dead and gone. Many hands make light work, therefore more is better.

#8 It appears that the world may be reaching the carrying capacity for humans. If we exceed that capacity we’ll damage the world. Better taper off so that we can maintain this population for a long long time.

#9 I will be old some day. If I get one visit per year from each child the more I have now the less lonely I’ll be when I’m old.

#10 Just look at the little nippers! Who wouldn’t want more?

#11 Just look at the little brats! Who would want any more?

 

[MeaCulpa]

There seems to be a dichotomy here. Most of the “answsers” you gave seem to revolve about what “man” wants and not what God wants for us.

You request we not mention sin - but we can’t turn our back on what the Church teaches when discerning what God wants, now can we.

In 1948, Pius XII taught it can be morally permissible to use NFP to avoid having children for the entire duration of the marriage in the face of a most serious reason, e.g., if pregnancy would truly threaten the wife’s life.
A wrongful use of NFP would be to limit family size very severely for no good reason at all–just convenience.

Christian married couples are called to be generous in service of life, to trust God that he will truly provide.

A good read about this would be usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/humanae25.htm

 

[Catholic2003]

What about the effect of the new child on the stability of the marriage? For example, my spouse and I are fighting so much now a child will break up our marriage / draw us closer together.

Humanae Vitae says (emphasis added):

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.

Physical conditions would include having room to house the new child. Economic conditions would include the ability to support the new child, and provide for his or her education. I think you’ve covered psychological and social conditions in your original list.

 

[Pete2]

Black Jaque:

The topic is discernment, assume we are all trying to figure out what God wants from us - therefore sin is not possible.

I think the Catholic Church is teaching that you shouldn’t try to discern anything, since God will send you more kids if He wants to you to have them. NFP, the only acceptable method controlling the process, is only to be used on an exception basis.

That’s why strict Catholic families are so huge. My mom is one of 5 kids (Italian), and I know one Irish Catholic family with 13 kids. I don’t think there’s much discerning going on in that one!

Pete

 

[Kay_Cee]

That’s an interesting list you’ve got, Black Jaque, but I didn’t see one word on it about God or prayer.

 

[Catholic2003]

Pete2:

I think the Catholic Church is teaching that you shouldn’t try to discern anything, since God will send you more kids if He wants to you to have them.

This is called “providentialism”, and it is not at all what the Church teaches. God gave us brains precisely so we could discern His will and act upon it.

From Humanae Vitae (emphasis added):

With regard to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means an awareness of, and respect for, their proper functions. In the procreative faculty the human mind discerns biological laws that apply to the human person.

With regard to man’s innate drives and emotions, responsible parenthood means that man’s reason and will must exert control over them.

In other words, if a couple isn’t ready to have another child, they need to keep their pants on, and not rely on God to supernatually keep sperm and egg separated while the couple irresponsibly continues to engage in marital relations anyway.

 

[Pete2]

Catholic2003:

In other words, if a couple isn’t ready to have another child, they need to keep their pants on, and not rely on God to supernatually keep sperm and egg separated while the couple irresponsibly continues to engage in marital relations anyway.

So I’m completely unclear as to what justifies “not ready” to have a child.

If a couple gets married and never feels like they are “ready” to have a child, then do they abstain for their entire marriage? The Church is ok with that?

That’s one extreme, and “providentialism” is on the other (never heard the term before.) If the truth is somewhere in the middle, I would argue that the quotes you provided in your posts provide about as much guidance as the government’s color coded terror warning system.

Pete

 

[Catholic2003]

Pete2:

So I’m completely unclear as to what justifies “not ready” to have a child.

For example, Rusty and Andrea Yates were not ready to have their fifth child.

Pete2:

If a couple gets married and never feels like they are “ready” to have a child, then do they abstain for their entire marriage? The Church is ok with that?

It depends on the couple’s reasons.

Pete2:

That’s one extreme, and “providentialism” is on the other (never heard the term before.)

Here is Chrisopher West’s discussion of providentialism:

Trusting in Providence

So what constitutes a “serious reason” for avoiding a child? Here’s where the discussion typically gets heated. Correct thinking (ortho-doxy) on the issue of responsible parenthood, like all issues, is a matter of maintaining important distinctions and carefully balancing various truths. Failure to do so leads to errors on both extremes.

An example of one such error is the “hyper-pious” notion that if couples really trusted in providence, they would never seek to avoid a child. This simply is not the teaching of the Church. As Karol Wojtyla (John Paul II’s pre-papal name) observed, in some cases “increase in the size of the family would be incompatible with parental duty.”[10] Therefore, as he also affirmed, avoiding children “in certain circumstances may be permissible or even obligatory.”[11]

We are certainly to trust in God’s providence. But this important truth must be balanced with another important truth if we are to avoid the error of a certain “providentialism.” When the devil tempted Christ to jump from the temple, he was correct to say that God would provide for him. The devil was even quoting Scripture! But Christ responded with another truth from Scripture: “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test” (see Lk 4:9-12).

A couple struggling to provide for their existing children should likewise not put God to the test. Today, knowledge of the fertility cycle is part of God’s providence. Thus, couples who make responsible use of that knowledge to avoid pregnancy are trusting in God’s providence. They, no less than a couple “who prudently and generously decide to have a large family,”[12] are practicing responsible parenthood.

Pete2:

If the truth is somewhere in the middle, I would argue that the quotes you provided in your posts provide about as much guidance as the government’s color coded terror warning system.

That’s because I was addressing a different point, that “letting God decide” means praying to discern God’s will, and not irresponsibly engaging in marital relations without regard to a couple’s ability to raise another child. If your wife is one more child away from turning into another Andrea Yates, it is your responsibility to keep your pants on, not God’s responsibility to interfere in the natural process of conception. Believing the latter is just bad theology, with sometimes deadly consequences.

 

[Pete2]

Catholic2003:

For example, Rusty and Andrea Yates were not ready to have their fifth child.

It depends on the couple’s reasons.

Here is Chrisopher West’s discussion of providentialism:

That’s because I was addressing a different point, that “letting God decide” means praying to discern God’s will, and not irresponsibly engaging in marital relations without regard to a couple’s ability to raise another child. If your wife is one more child away from turning into another Andrea Yates, it is your responsibility to keep your pants on, not God’s responsibility to interfere in the natural process of conception. Believing the latter is just bad theology, with sometimes deadly consequences.

So does the Church teach that married couples should completely abstain from sex if they discern that God doesn’t want them to have a child, or another child? Or can they practice NFP during that period, based on discernment? Someone contributed a quote earlier in this thread referring to use of NFP for a “most serious reason”. Does God’s will discerned count as a “most serious reason”?

I’m not trying to be combative, I’m asking because I don’t understand.

Pete

 

[crazyage3]

Catholic2003:

What about the effect of the new child on the stability of the marriage? For example, my spouse and I are fighting so much now a child will break up our marriage / draw us closer together.

Humanae Vitae says (emphasis added):

Physical conditions would include having room to house the new child. Economic conditions would include the ability to support the new child, and provide for his or her education. I think you’ve covered psychological and social conditions in your original list.

What if your marriage is rocky with one child? WOuld it be alright to wait until the marriage is healed before another child comes into this family? Or what if the female has hormone/reproductive or mental problems? This is currently my situation. I dont want to add more damage to my soul!!!

 

[Catholic2003]

Pete2:

So does the Church teach that married couples should completely abstain from sex if they discern that God doesn’t want them to have a child, or another child? Or can they practice NFP during that period, based on discernment?

Both methods are acceptable to the Church, so long as they represent the joint decision of the couple, and not one spouse forcing a unilateral decision on the other spouse.

Pete2:

Someone contributed a quote earlier in this thread referring to use of NFP for a “most serious reason”. Does God’s will discerned count as a “most serious reason”?

The level of reason required (“just”, “serious”, “most serious”, etc.) is the Church’s way of helping us discern God’s will. So I would say that God’s will, correctly discerned, will necessarily be a reason at the required level as taught by the Church.

Here is my understanding of the required levels:

• To indefinitely postpone children = serious reasons (Latin seriis causis), from Humanae Vitae 10.
• To space births = well-grounded reasons (Latin iustae adsint causae), from Humanae Vitae 16.

Pete2:

I’m not trying to be combative, I’m asking because I don’t understand.

No problem. I hope other people chime in, because I’m far from an expert in this area.

 

[Catholic2003]

crazyage3:

What if your marriage is rocky with one child? WOuld it be alright to wait until the marriage is healed before another child comes into this family? Or what if the female has hormone/reproductive or mental problems? This is currently my situation. I dont want to add more damage to my soul!!!

I think it is always best to discuss specific situations with your priest.

On a personal note, my first marriage was rocky with no children. Our first (and only) child made it much worse, and we divorced without having any other children.

 

[crazyage3]

You know what I was thinking? I really should not have to talk to a priest. They may be priests but some Catholics or lay catholics have more knowledge on this subject. Not to mention, I always find priests to be very short with me. DOnt get me wrong, I totally respect them and think it is awesome of them to serve God. I just dont feel like they always have all of the answers. Only God does. I’ve been reading a lot of people recommending a priest. But why not check ourselves like catholic.com or ewtn, a spiritual counselor, prayer, other Catholics, the Catechism& bible. If having a child made your marriage worse (not because of the precious child of course, but because of your relationship) wouldnt that be a yield for others who are in the same situation? Children should be surrounded by love! Not argueing, etc. I know in my heart that the relationship needs to be mended before another child comes into the family.

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

If a person doesn’t want children, the person shouldn’t get married. Raising children is usually a part of marriage.

On the other hand, getting married is no guarantee that one will have children. Children are a gift from God. And God doesn’t give children to every married couple.

A normal husband and wife love each other and enjoy each other’s company. A happy marriage tends to produce a family with many children.

 

[Pug]

For some families, these are considerations:

1. There is abuse in the family
2. There are drugs in the house
3. Someone is being unfaithful
4. One person has figured out that they are gay
5. You are currently unable to access prenatal care, but you expect that will eventually change
6. You live in a country that will force you to abort the child anyway
7. I’m a total deadbeat who won’t work and I just shoot pool all day down at the local bar and probably won’t change
8. The two of you are only staying married because you must, but you don’t really wish to be married
9. I will lose my job if I get pregnant this moment

I think it is a tough decision that is affected by many factors.

 

[Black_Jaque]

There seems to be a dichotomy here. Most of the “answsers” you gave seem to revolve about what “man” wants and not what God wants for us.

That’s an interesting list you’ve got, Black Jaque, but I didn’t see one word on it about God or prayer.

I guess I should have made it clear that these things, or at least some of these things should be taken into prayer as part of discernment.

Or, in other words, the assumption is you are the type of person who “prays always, and sometimes even uses words.”

I don’t know about you, but I can bet that if I knelt down before the blessed Sacrament and asked Him if I should have another child, I wouldn’t here any voices saying anything.

But I see Jesus in my wife, when she says, “uh-uh, no way”.

Are you telling me God is not there when the grandparents ask, “are you gonna give our grandson a sister?”

Are you telling me God is entirely out of the picture, when the wine is the best you’ve ever had, the snow is twinkling in the moonlight, and the fire just seems sooo warm?

Personally speeking, we’ve got 4. Before the last one, my spouse was saying the typical things, “No way, never again”. Then when her fertility came back, she changed her mind.

Now her fertility has come back and her mind has NOT changed. I realize it is not a given that this is God speaking through her, but it’s strong evidence.

I’m not exactly dieing to have another, though there are times when I look at my kids and think of how fast they move out of various stages. It’s hard to think that this is my last go-round.

And there are times when I look ahead. Family camping trips will be a practical reality. Instead of just wishing we could get another wink of sleep, we might actually be able to cultivate more formal prayer in our day.

My wife is not getting younger (as if I am! No she’s actually older than me and childbearing is more difficult on her than me).

How foolish would I be to ignore God when he’s speaking to me in so many ways!!! But, I must be humble and admit that I’m not perfect in interpretting these things either. So we use NFP. And maybe, just maybe, my wife’s mind will change, or maybe there will be an evening when the kids go to sleep early…

 

[Shiann]

Black Jaque-


I enjoy reading each of your posts- they have practical everyday advice in them. I can tell you live the Faith. You sound like a loving husband and father- I’m sure God is proud to call you His own.

I think I understand what you are saying here. You are taking “context clues” from your life, and from your conversations to discern God’s Will in your life.

I do this too. I call them my “bell choir” (I know, protestantish- but I truly do almost hear the bells when my decisions “ring true” no pun intended.)

There have been times when I’ve heard literal GONGS. And sometimes I struggle to hear the tiniest tinkling. But either way- I have always believed that the Holy Spirit finds wonderful humorous and creative ways of introducing me and guiding me on the path God wishes me to be on.

So, all that said, I agree with you. We need to remain open to those “context clues” you describe, for God often speaks to us subtley and creatively.

But we also need to make sure that these “context clues” ring true with our knowledge of our Faith, and with our prayerful life. Your examples all consider when your “context clues” are enticing and leading you and your wife to have another baby.

What happens when the MIL is telling you 2 is enough, and the finances aren’t stellar- and the family is squishing into 900 square feet, but the “gongs” are going off?

I guess I prioritize the process this way:

1. Marriage is creationary- God has set up marriage for us to offer children to Him and the world. This should be a priority over many “material” things. (Please note I said nothing of NECESSARY things).
2. We need prayerfull and regular contemplation on the decision. I do not like to hear when couples have a blanket “NO MORE KIDS”. It doesn’t indicate an intent to seriously contemplate the decision again. This also indicates that their hearts and eyes might be closed to those subtle context clues we discussed earlier.
3. Finally, those context clues should reinforce that which we already know to be true. We decide- we just can’t afford a child right now- BAM, one of the other kids breaks an arm and another $4000 later… Well maybe no kids right now was prudent.

But then there’s the couple decided to remain open, had a moonlit tryst even though they have a large bill sitting on the kitchen counter- BAM, a rich relative dies and leaves them everything…

Yah, I know pretty unrealistic- but I think you know what I mean.

I guess to sum it all up, to me, any good decision follows this pattern.

God, Me, Holy Spirit.

I’m surrounded by God and am in His full embrace. How could it get any better?

 

[Black_Jaque]

You sound like a loving husband and father-

HeyheyHEY! I’m carefully nursing a macho bad-guy image here. Any more comments like this and the moderators will be having me change my moniker to “White Jaque”.

 

[JessHav]

Great post Shiann…so VERY realistic that it is advice I will keep with me in my own life…a “GONG” to my personal situation…

Thank you!

 

[goravens]

Thanks for your post! It’s ingrained with a great deal of wisdom regarding discernment.

Shiann:

Black Jaque-


I enjoy reading each of your posts- they have practical everyday advice in them. I can tell you live the Faith. You sound like a loving husband and father- I’m sure God is proud to call you His own.

I think I understand what you are saying here. You are taking “context clues” from your life, and from your conversations to discern God’s Will in your life.

I do this too. I call them my “bell choir” (I know, protestantish- but I truly do almost hear the bells when my decisions “ring true” no pun intended.)

There have been times when I’ve heard literal GONGS. And sometimes I struggle to hear the tiniest tinkling. But either way- I have always believed that the Holy Spirit finds wonderful humorous and creative ways of introducing me and guiding me on the path God wishes me to be on.

So, all that said, I agree with you. We need to remain open to those “context clues” you describe, for God often speaks to us subtley and creatively.

But we also need to make sure that these “context clues” ring true with our knowledge of our Faith, and with our prayerful life. Your examples all consider when your “context clues” are enticing and leading you and your wife to have another baby.

What happens when the MIL is telling you 2 is enough, and the finances aren’t stellar- and the family is squishing into 900 square feet, but the “gongs” are going off?

I guess I prioritize the process this way:

1. Marriage is creationary- God has set up marriage for us to offer children to Him and the world. This should be a priority over many “material” things. (Please note I said nothing of NECESSARY things).
2. We need prayerfull and regular contemplation on the decision. I do not like to hear when couples have a blanket “NO MORE KIDS”. It doesn’t indicate an intent to seriously contemplate the decision again. This also indicates that their hearts and eyes might be closed to those subtle context clues we discussed earlier.
3. Finally, those context clues should reinforce that which we already know to be true. We decide- we just can’t afford a child right now- BAM, one of the other kids breaks an arm and another $4000 later… Well maybe no kids right now was prudent.

But then there’s the couple decided to remain open, had a moonlit tryst even though they have a large bill sitting on the kitchen counter- BAM, a rich relative dies and leaves them everything…

Yah, I know pretty unrealistic- but I think you know what I mean.

I guess to sum it all up, to me, any good decision follows this pattern.

God, Me, Holy Spirit.

I’m surrounded by God and am in His full embrace. How could it get any better?