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StSusanna
Guest
For me, I read someplace, perhaps in the NFP manual, that the greatest gift one can give a child is a sibling.
- Status
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dwc
Guest
I would only add that a couple should consider their ability to emotionally and psychologically care for another child and should consider the added stress on the entire family, other children included.
Long story short, I grew up on a street that was founded by my parish to help provide affordable housing to the large families of the fledgling parish. Everyone on the street was a devout Catholic and the street became known as the “fertile crescent,” because it was shaped like a half moon. While I was growing up the street had 110 kids in 14 houses. We all went to the parish school up the street and all of us had stay home moms.
During the summers you could hear the moms screaming through open windows all day long. The mothers were good Catholic women who didn’t use birth control and thought they were gaining all this grace by having as many babies as God wanted. Problem was, very few of them were equipped to handle it. Most were overwhelmed, exhausted and incredibly frustrated. My own mom would resort to physical abuse (no, not like spanking – like banging our heads against the wall and throwing me down the stairs). Other moms would just zone out, some quietly drank throughout the day and several would just lock the kids out and have no clue what they were doing (like, smoking dope and having sex out in the gargage – all of us younger kids knew, but the mom never did).
Most of us were starved for some one on one adult attention, but never got it because our moms were spread too thin among too many and our dads had to work a lot in order to support us. I came in the second wave of kids for many of the families. The older kids in the families tended to turn out ok, the younger ones had a lot of problems in school, with drugs, early sex, unwanted pregnancies, etc. The parents just ran out of time and energy to care for the kids at some point. For some families it seemed the first 6 were ok, for others the parents seemed to reach their limit at about 3 or 4. At least half of the kids in my neighborhood left the church as soon as they left their parents’ home. In my own family only 2 of us kids remain Catholic.
My point is that a couple doesn’t gain grace just by having babies, but they have to raise them in a manner befitting a gift from God, as well. If they can’t do that, then they should discern that and stop, in my opinion. So often here people talk like the point is just to have as many kids as possible and that if others don’t, they must be **selfish. **To me it seems better to make sure you can not only have them, but raise them in a manner that reflects God’s love and encourages them to stay in the church.
ETA: Black Jacque – from your posts it seems you and your wife have a loving family and marriage and could welcome another baby with ease. All of the above was not directed at you – just more of a generalized list. I know it’s something I heavily considered when having my kids.
Long story short, I grew up on a street that was founded by my parish to help provide affordable housing to the large families of the fledgling parish. Everyone on the street was a devout Catholic and the street became known as the “fertile crescent,” because it was shaped like a half moon. While I was growing up the street had 110 kids in 14 houses. We all went to the parish school up the street and all of us had stay home moms.
During the summers you could hear the moms screaming through open windows all day long. The mothers were good Catholic women who didn’t use birth control and thought they were gaining all this grace by having as many babies as God wanted. Problem was, very few of them were equipped to handle it. Most were overwhelmed, exhausted and incredibly frustrated. My own mom would resort to physical abuse (no, not like spanking – like banging our heads against the wall and throwing me down the stairs). Other moms would just zone out, some quietly drank throughout the day and several would just lock the kids out and have no clue what they were doing (like, smoking dope and having sex out in the gargage – all of us younger kids knew, but the mom never did).
Most of us were starved for some one on one adult attention, but never got it because our moms were spread too thin among too many and our dads had to work a lot in order to support us. I came in the second wave of kids for many of the families. The older kids in the families tended to turn out ok, the younger ones had a lot of problems in school, with drugs, early sex, unwanted pregnancies, etc. The parents just ran out of time and energy to care for the kids at some point. For some families it seemed the first 6 were ok, for others the parents seemed to reach their limit at about 3 or 4. At least half of the kids in my neighborhood left the church as soon as they left their parents’ home. In my own family only 2 of us kids remain Catholic.
My point is that a couple doesn’t gain grace just by having babies, but they have to raise them in a manner befitting a gift from God, as well. If they can’t do that, then they should discern that and stop, in my opinion. So often here people talk like the point is just to have as many kids as possible and that if others don’t, they must be **selfish. **To me it seems better to make sure you can not only have them, but raise them in a manner that reflects God’s love and encourages them to stay in the church.
ETA: Black Jacque – from your posts it seems you and your wife have a loving family and marriage and could welcome another baby with ease. All of the above was not directed at you – just more of a generalized list. I know it’s something I heavily considered when having my kids.
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Black_Jaque
Guest
DWC,
Dang! There you go throwin’ compliments around. You’re spoilin’ my image, don’t ya know? Truthfully, I’m flattered.
Yes, I’ve witnessed some of what you describe, though not to the same degree. And in my 20’s I concluded the same thing. But there is a danger, that is, it begs the question, “Can you have too many kids?” Which is about as realistic as having extra beer.
The only other possible conclusion to draw is that those parents somehow made some mistakes in the upbringing (Gasssp!).
I’ve made some observations as a father of a homeschooling family, and I think this may warrant some further study. I’m beginning to suspect that widespread public schooling has exacerbated the problems you cite. With the current style of schooling, as soon as the children reach the age of 5 they are wisked away from the home for the better part of the day. That leaves ma home with only those children under 5 - the most helpless ones. If these mothers have 6 - 8 kids that’s at least 6 - 8 years of having only kids 5 or under in the house.
Homeschooling mothers on the other hand keep the kids in the house past the age of 5. As each child gets older, they become more and more capable of helping with the dishes, cleaning, laundry, cooking, all the work considered drudgery. What’s more, is at the age of reason, the kids can begin asking challenging questions, the mothers are not just subject to baby-talk all day. Even more, the mothers duties now expand to taking field trips hither and yon for purpose of broadening the older childrens’ horizons. Finally, even the toddlers find it interesting playing with older siblings, as a consequence mom can get ignored for several hours at a crack.
So it just may be possible that if you rewound the vcr on your life and replayed the days of the old fertile crescent, only have the mothers homeschool, things could have turned out very differently.
Hmmm. 110 kids per 14 homes. That would work out to 14 adult mothers. That’s a ratio of 7.8 kids:1adult way, way better than a school. Just that alone should suggest the results would be better had they homeschooled.
Dang! There you go throwin’ compliments around. You’re spoilin’ my image, don’t ya know? Truthfully, I’m flattered.
Yes, I’ve witnessed some of what you describe, though not to the same degree. And in my 20’s I concluded the same thing. But there is a danger, that is, it begs the question, “Can you have too many kids?” Which is about as realistic as having extra beer.
The only other possible conclusion to draw is that those parents somehow made some mistakes in the upbringing (Gasssp!).
I’ve made some observations as a father of a homeschooling family, and I think this may warrant some further study. I’m beginning to suspect that widespread public schooling has exacerbated the problems you cite. With the current style of schooling, as soon as the children reach the age of 5 they are wisked away from the home for the better part of the day. That leaves ma home with only those children under 5 - the most helpless ones. If these mothers have 6 - 8 kids that’s at least 6 - 8 years of having only kids 5 or under in the house.
Homeschooling mothers on the other hand keep the kids in the house past the age of 5. As each child gets older, they become more and more capable of helping with the dishes, cleaning, laundry, cooking, all the work considered drudgery. What’s more, is at the age of reason, the kids can begin asking challenging questions, the mothers are not just subject to baby-talk all day. Even more, the mothers duties now expand to taking field trips hither and yon for purpose of broadening the older childrens’ horizons. Finally, even the toddlers find it interesting playing with older siblings, as a consequence mom can get ignored for several hours at a crack.
So it just may be possible that if you rewound the vcr on your life and replayed the days of the old fertile crescent, only have the mothers homeschool, things could have turned out very differently.
Hmmm. 110 kids per 14 homes. That would work out to 14 adult mothers. That’s a ratio of 7.8 kids:1adult way, way better than a school. Just that alone should suggest the results would be better had they homeschooled.
S
Shiann
Guest
JessHav and goravens- Thanks so much for the nice comments.
Black Jaque- I retract every compliment to you which I posted here. I wouldn’t want your bad boy image to become sullied…
(If you’d prefer your complements PM’d just let me know LOL).
Black Jaque- I retract every compliment to you which I posted here. I wouldn’t want your bad boy image to become sullied…
(If you’d prefer your complements PM’d just let me know LOL).
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Shiann
Guest
Black Jaque:
This is a very compelling argument, and I would tend to agree with you at first glance (having not thought it through further than the comments here in this post).
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dwc
Guest
I shudder to think of what would have happened if mom had to homeschool us in addition to all the housework, cooking, etc. Summers seemed to be the peak of her frustration with all of us home, so I don’t think having more of us around all year would have helped at all. The circumstances of the homeschooling scenario existed during summer vacation and other holidays and, as I said, the more of us around, the worse it was, even though we helped with the housework, a lot. I honestly believe that, no matter the circumstances, mom would have been an excellent mother to 2-3 children. Beyond that she just couldn’t handle it. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that-- not every woman is cut out to parent a large family. Some women are able to have a large family and homeschool them and do a wonderful job. Other women can’t, but **can **be a very loving and good mother to a few children. Why not appreciate them for that?
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Pete2
Guest
Black, How can one person provide a quality education to 8 different kids, all different ages, and all at the same time?
Pete
Pete
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Shiann
Guest
How do you think our grandparents and great grandparents were educated?
Are you saying those who went to a school house received a better education because they weren’t all in the same family?
I’m confused by your question.
And if you are thinking that kids have more to learn today- well, 2+2 equals 4 the same as it did in 1850… The alphabet is still the same, sentence structure is the same… some history and science applications are different- but much easier to explain to kids today using modern technology.
Well, regardless, this is way off topic. More discussion on this should probably be on another thread.
Sorry for the minor hijack.
R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
**Pete, I must say I was okay with your post right up until that last sentence. Many people think that the only reason anyone would have 7 (my current head count) is because they’re too stupid to think first. They just can’t imagine that those people did give much discernment and sacrifice much for those babies willingly and knowingly. **
Look at it this way, the BVM had never been with a man, didn’t have wealth or social standing, didn’t know how Joseph would react, or what the future grandparents would say, had no idea how to feed and care for a baby on her own, she could have been stoned to death for accepting God’s will to have just that 1 baby! But she didn’t reason it all out or way all the pros/cons, she just accepted and loved the child God gave her.
Now the sad thing today is that even though we are all so very blessed by that Holy Child, most would tell a married girl in her situation to not get pregnant - to say no to God, let Him find some other woman to carry out His plans. I wonder how many saints we’ve missed out on due to the very vague “serious reason” to avoid pregnancy? (And I’m not talking the rare “I’ll drop dead if I get pregnant cases.” either, but even so - what if Mary had died in labor as was so very common back then???)
For us, we only use NFP if a certain short term issue is comming up that would harm a pregnancy - like needing to get an x-ray or other health issue resolved.
Just my thoughts…
B
Black_Jaque
Guest
Believe it or not, it’s easier than trying to provide a quality education to 18 different kids, all the same age, and all at the same time.
This method succeeds partly because the older kids help. I often come home to find my 5 yr-old and my 7 yr-old squished into an armchair, and the 7 year old is reading to the 5 yr-old. The 5 yr-old is inspired by her bigger sister’s ability and is now wanting to follow in her footsteps. The 7 year old is proud to read, and probably gets a whole lot of practice reading because her sister requests it.
And it’s seldom “at the same time”. While daughters are reading, 9 yr-old son is helping cook, and learning fractions and math while doubling a recipe. As well as chemistry, “what makes the biscuits rise?”
But most of all they don’t learn all the bad stuff. Because they don’t know any better, they all like peas and broccoli. I remember learning real quick that you were an outsider if you ate the peas in the cafeteria. My kids also think reading, math, and science are fascinating subjects. There hasn’t been anyone to tell them that people who like math are weird. I remember learning to pretend that I didn’t like math, so that I would fit in.
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Black_Jaque
Guest
DWC,
So you truly believe that given your parents situation, there just was *no way *to raise that many kids without resorting to abuse?
Come on now. I bet if you thought about it real hard there might be a prevelant sin or two that went unaddressed. Was there a lot of keeping up with the Joneses? That’s what God meant by not coveting thy neighbors goods. Neighbor gets a boat, you have to have one, a bigger one. Neighbor gets a push mower, you have to get a riding mower. No wonder Dad’s at the office 'til 7pm.
I don’t believe that there are very many families with histories like you describe where God didn’t give the parents opportunities to do it correctly, but the parent(s) just chose the wrong path.
It can be like a chicken-or-the-egg situation. For example: Mom gets stressed out with all the work. Instead of chosing to buckle down and just do it, she tells herself she deserves to watch a soap opera. So an hour goes by where she watches TV, knowing full well she needs to be working. Now she has 1 less hour to get what she needs to get done, stress gets worse. Tomorrow stress is worse, needs TV break even more, and so on.
Or, and I’ve learned this from personal experience, I would try to watch TV, which requires my attention. Kids interrupt. I say, “shhhhh”. Kids start playing, laughing and giggling, doing nothing wrong. My frustration builds. Then, I lower the boom on the kids for being disobedient. Next day, same thing, kids didn’t learn. After several occurrences, I once turned the TV “off” because my attempts to control the kids were futile. My stress vanished as quickly as the picture on the screen! Pretty soon, I was rolling on the floor wrestling with the kids. Oooops! Wait a minute, I didn’t mention any prayer, or consultation with God on my choices to watch TV or not. Maybe my decision to wrestle instead of watch was the wrong one? Oh no! I’m gonna fryyyyyy!
So you truly believe that given your parents situation, there just was *no way *to raise that many kids without resorting to abuse?
Come on now. I bet if you thought about it real hard there might be a prevelant sin or two that went unaddressed. Was there a lot of keeping up with the Joneses? That’s what God meant by not coveting thy neighbors goods. Neighbor gets a boat, you have to have one, a bigger one. Neighbor gets a push mower, you have to get a riding mower. No wonder Dad’s at the office 'til 7pm.
I don’t believe that there are very many families with histories like you describe where God didn’t give the parents opportunities to do it correctly, but the parent(s) just chose the wrong path.
It can be like a chicken-or-the-egg situation. For example: Mom gets stressed out with all the work. Instead of chosing to buckle down and just do it, she tells herself she deserves to watch a soap opera. So an hour goes by where she watches TV, knowing full well she needs to be working. Now she has 1 less hour to get what she needs to get done, stress gets worse. Tomorrow stress is worse, needs TV break even more, and so on.
Or, and I’ve learned this from personal experience, I would try to watch TV, which requires my attention. Kids interrupt. I say, “shhhhh”. Kids start playing, laughing and giggling, doing nothing wrong. My frustration builds. Then, I lower the boom on the kids for being disobedient. Next day, same thing, kids didn’t learn. After several occurrences, I once turned the TV “off” because my attempts to control the kids were futile. My stress vanished as quickly as the picture on the screen! Pretty soon, I was rolling on the floor wrestling with the kids. Oooops! Wait a minute, I didn’t mention any prayer, or consultation with God on my choices to watch TV or not. Maybe my decision to wrestle instead of watch was the wrong one? Oh no! I’m gonna fryyyyyy!
D
dwc
Guest
No, what I meant is that there was probably no way *for my mother *to raise that many kids without problems in the context of an average middle class family .If she had a nanny and help with housecleaning and no financial constraints, maybe she could have. But realistically, her personality type just couldn’t deal with the constant demands and stress of that many kids and their needs plus the necessity of running a household. My point is that women should be allowed to be individuals with individual abilities. If your wife can do this, that is truly wonderful, but please don’t expect every woman to be a cookie cutter of her.
No, not at all. And I understand exactly what God meant by not coveting my neighbor’s goods.
Black, believe me, I’ve spent many years searching my soul about this. I’ve discussed it with priests and religious and my husband and women who have successfully raised all different size families. You probably intuitively know I’ve had to struggle to forgive my mom and come to peace with this. Oddly enough, I wasn’t able to fully forgive her until I had several children of my own. Then and only then did I even begin to comprehend the demands on a full time mom of many more children than I have.
Of course she could have done better. Every parent fails at times and has things they could do much better. My point is that mom and all these women in my neighborhood **thought **they were doing the right thing by having all the children they biologically could without considering whether they could raise the new child and the children they already had in a manner consistent with what the church and God intended. They thought they were saving their souls. The result is that they raised many of their children without adequate supervision, interaction, attention and appropriate discipline. They raised children who resented and left the Catholic church. They raised kids who were very suspicious of marriage and hesitant to have kids because of the example set by them. My parents still live in our old neighborhood and so do many of the other old families, so I keep up somewhat with who’s doing what, who’s married, who does or doesn’t have kids, who’s still practicing and who’s left the Church.
I just fail to see how it’s not better to raise fewer children well than many children poorly.
*
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frogman80
Guest
Discernment… has more to do with figuring out if you are doing something for yourself, or for God. Your actions / decisions should be God centered. Figure out your reasons for picking out a particular course. If your actions / decisions are God centered, then you will be doing God’s will… it would be hard not to!
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pegrok
Guest
Something I want to say is that I’ve read (I’m not sure where) that the proper translation is that we need a “reasonable” reason to use NFP, not necessarily a “grave” reason. We should not use the word “grave” which means very serious. I believe this is correct. I don’t think we should have to have a “grave” reason–the wife is dying of cancer–in order to be able to try not to get pregnant using NFP. I believe that a married couple can agree to abstain from sex–how could this be wrong? It says in Corrinthians somewhere that a man and wife can obstain from sex for a while if they agree to (although it recommends not too long lest they be tempted to be unfaithful). And how could it be wrong for a married couple to have sex that is open to life even if only during the less fertile time? I think there is too much pressure by some Catholics on this issue. I think that any reason that is reasonable is OK. A reason that is contrary to the truth is not a reasonable reason. In other words, you can’t just say I don’t like kids and so I don’t want any. This is immature thinking because God says to be fruitful & blesses people with children in the bible so they must be a good thing. However, there can be many good reasons to use NFP–emotional, financial, health difficulties, etc. I think that because having kids is part of the purpose of marraige that couples should pray about it regularly during their fertile years. As long as they are doing this, they can use their best judgement. I have 5 (am too old for more). Some people think 5 isn’t enough so I don’t think I should judge others with only 2. This being said I hope Catholics try to be generous as the radical Muslims seem to be having so many. How are we going to spread the gospel if our population isn’t growing much?
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gardenswithkids
Guest
That point is one to consider when discerning another pregnancy. But raising many children doesn’t have to be done poorly. And raising few isn’t always done well.
I read your posts a few days ago and spent some time pondering what you wrote. First of all, I am very sorry to read of the abuse you and your sibblings suffered in childhood. But I also know people who come from families of one, two or three children who suffered from abuse or who had alcoholic parents. Maybe more kids might have pushed your mom to the breaking point, but who knows? Maybe she and the other parents in your old neighborhood would have had those weaknesses no matter how many children they had.
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Shiann
Guest
I think that was her point.
I think the poster was saying that her mother might have been emotionally incapable of “dealing” with more kids, yet the Catholic religion and “culture” of her neighborhood compelled her to have more. There was no real discernment on the part of her mother and father as to the number of children her mother could care for because they felt they should have more. Her weakness just got worse.
I think dwc just wanted to include that psychological aspect to the discerning process, it isn’t always financial or physical. And I would tend to agree with her- in the example she gave.
But it is VERY easy for us to say “we’re too tired to exercise”, “we’re too busy to pray”, and we can come up with a “psychological” excuse for nearly anything, and justify our actions with mental conditions.
“We’re too tired to have more kids”, “we’re too mentally strained with the 4 kids we have”. Well, that might be true- but I believe this realization can only come with EXTENSIVE and INTENSIVE prayer. Our “emotional” minds are very tricky in many ways. If I believe that my life will never get better- at what point does that become my reality? I hope you see what I’m getting at.
*dwc, please do not misunderstand. I do not wish to discount your mother’s struggle or your childhood experience with big families. *
Obviously there are situations where reality reflects a scenerio like the one dwc presents. Sometimes, postponing more children may be the answer.
But on the other hand, when we give our lives to God, the first thing people often note as a change in their life IS there emotional mental health. Things that bothered them before- no longer have power over them. They find they automatically devote more time to basic things like home, family, marriage, and God. Things just fit into place better- and there isn’t such a struggle.
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
Many great points Shiann. But my point was the number of children may have little to do with the troubles in some families. Alcoholism and abuse occur in some families with or without lots of children. Blaming excess drinking or physical abuse on the fifth or sixth baby misplaces the blame. As Jesus pointed out with the example of lust, problems originate in our hearts.
Some Catholics (particularly in years gone by) hand over to God the number of children, but if they don’t hand over the rest of their lives, they will struggle. God doesn’t just want us to hand Him our fertility–He wants everything in our lives. And if a parent struggles with anger to the point of abuse, God wants to heal that whether they have one child or ten.
Now fewer people do let God determine family size. Yet many families live in chaos, leading separate lives while running around chasing happiness, thinking more children will make life worse. Honestly, raising any size family is difficult, but like you said “as we give our lives to God things fit into place better and there isn’t such a struggle.”
I believe there is less struggle for me now with my large family now than I had with only one and two children. I used to try to raise my small family with only little help from God because I thought we could manage it on our own; as my family size increased, my reliance on God increased also. My children helped me let God be in charge of my life, because they showed me ample evidence that I really never was in control of it in the first place.
Some Catholics (particularly in years gone by) hand over to God the number of children, but if they don’t hand over the rest of their lives, they will struggle. God doesn’t just want us to hand Him our fertility–He wants everything in our lives. And if a parent struggles with anger to the point of abuse, God wants to heal that whether they have one child or ten.
Now fewer people do let God determine family size. Yet many families live in chaos, leading separate lives while running around chasing happiness, thinking more children will make life worse. Honestly, raising any size family is difficult, but like you said “as we give our lives to God things fit into place better and there isn’t such a struggle.”
I believe there is less struggle for me now with my large family now than I had with only one and two children. I used to try to raise my small family with only little help from God because I thought we could manage it on our own; as my family size increased, my reliance on God increased also. My children helped me let God be in charge of my life, because they showed me ample evidence that I really never was in control of it in the first place.
B
Black_Jaque
Guest
DWC,
Where are you in life? I’ll venture a guess that you aren’t posting from a prison cell. Why not?
You are a product of your parents’ triumphs and failures. They made some mistakes, some bad ones, but they also made some great achievements. All the good things about you are specifically because of their successes.
I think what you are doing is you are looking at your own generations problems/failures and blaming it on your parents’ triumphs. Kind of a mix-up. Instead associate your successes with those areas where your parents also succeeded, and associate your failures with those areas your parents also failed.
So you look at all the drugs, sex, and law-breaking of your generation and you blame it on your parents faith in God to provide them with whatever they needed to raise you. Instead, your generation’s problems likely stem from real moral failures of your parents. And the very fact that your parents were so faithful is the root of all your successes. Give credit to your parents “blind faith” for your very next heatbeat.
Take a thorough assessment of all that is good about you, and all that is bad about you. Then step back and take a look at all that was good about the world you grew up in, and all that was bad about it. I’m guessing that your fertile cresent wasn’t totally isolated from the world. Do you think that maybe Rock-n-Roll and pop-culture had something to do with the fornication and unwanted pregnancies that went on? Your parents had an enemy they weren’t prepared for.
Black, believe me, I’ve spent many years searching my soul about this. I’ve discussed it with priests and religious and my husband and women who have successfully raised all different size families. You probably intuitively know I’ve had to struggle to forgive my mom and come to peace with this. Oddly enough, I wasn’t able to fully forgive her until I had several children of my own. Then and only then did I even begin to comprehend the demands on a full time mom of many more children than I have.
I’ve done the soul-searching too. And I’ve learned to credit the good with the good and blame the bad on the bad. I have 6 siblings. All survived to adulthood, that’s a parenting triumph. All 7 of us speak to each other and thoroughly enjoy each other’s company when we can. All 7 of us are productive citizens, no one is in prison. These are all parenting triumphs and we owe this all to the great success of my parents.
Now of the 7, not all stayed in the Church. Not all have given grandchildren (I’m not talking infertility here). Some have committed mortal sins and acts of impurity, even been arrested as teens. My family has it’s problems. My parents suffered greatly under the strain. But guess what? My parents weren’t sinless either. Do ya think the problems stem from the sins? Just maybe?
Finally, in my soul searching, I studied my family tree a bit. Ya know what I learned? My parents didn’t mess me up! They spared me from a Hell that they grew up in! Well at least one side of my family. What a revelation that was to see that the dysfunction in my grandparents family, and great-grandparents family was worse, far worse! My grandparents took a messed up situation and made a few improvements (like simply staying married). Then my own parents added their own improvements (not only stayed married, but stayed faithful). Now it’s up to me to continue with this direction.
Oh, and in a way, my siblings and I often served as our own 12-step group for each other. There was always 6 other people that were going through the same thing you were. There was always 6 other people who could relate to the problems you faced, you could talk things over without being cautious about it. Incidentally I can’t tell you how many times I hit the backspace button on this post because I didn’t think the information I typed was appropriate for non-family members to know. Yet I could call up one of my brothers or sister right now and have no concern whatsoever. Had I been one of only 2, I would really be messed up.
Finally, 7 kids meant I got to eat birthday cake 7 times a year! I tell you there just is no sin in making babies (legitimately, ahem).
Now go forth and put the “fun” in “dysfunctional”!:dancing: :bounce: :whacky: *
Where are you in life? I’ll venture a guess that you aren’t posting from a prison cell. Why not?
You are a product of your parents’ triumphs and failures. They made some mistakes, some bad ones, but they also made some great achievements. All the good things about you are specifically because of their successes.
I think what you are doing is you are looking at your own generations problems/failures and blaming it on your parents’ triumphs. Kind of a mix-up. Instead associate your successes with those areas where your parents also succeeded, and associate your failures with those areas your parents also failed.
So you look at all the drugs, sex, and law-breaking of your generation and you blame it on your parents faith in God to provide them with whatever they needed to raise you. Instead, your generation’s problems likely stem from real moral failures of your parents. And the very fact that your parents were so faithful is the root of all your successes. Give credit to your parents “blind faith” for your very next heatbeat.
Take a thorough assessment of all that is good about you, and all that is bad about you. Then step back and take a look at all that was good about the world you grew up in, and all that was bad about it. I’m guessing that your fertile cresent wasn’t totally isolated from the world. Do you think that maybe Rock-n-Roll and pop-culture had something to do with the fornication and unwanted pregnancies that went on? Your parents had an enemy they weren’t prepared for.
Black, believe me, I’ve spent many years searching my soul about this. I’ve discussed it with priests and religious and my husband and women who have successfully raised all different size families. You probably intuitively know I’ve had to struggle to forgive my mom and come to peace with this. Oddly enough, I wasn’t able to fully forgive her until I had several children of my own. Then and only then did I even begin to comprehend the demands on a full time mom of many more children than I have.
I’ve done the soul-searching too. And I’ve learned to credit the good with the good and blame the bad on the bad. I have 6 siblings. All survived to adulthood, that’s a parenting triumph. All 7 of us speak to each other and thoroughly enjoy each other’s company when we can. All 7 of us are productive citizens, no one is in prison. These are all parenting triumphs and we owe this all to the great success of my parents.
Now of the 7, not all stayed in the Church. Not all have given grandchildren (I’m not talking infertility here). Some have committed mortal sins and acts of impurity, even been arrested as teens. My family has it’s problems. My parents suffered greatly under the strain. But guess what? My parents weren’t sinless either. Do ya think the problems stem from the sins? Just maybe?
Finally, in my soul searching, I studied my family tree a bit. Ya know what I learned? My parents didn’t mess me up! They spared me from a Hell that they grew up in! Well at least one side of my family. What a revelation that was to see that the dysfunction in my grandparents family, and great-grandparents family was worse, far worse! My grandparents took a messed up situation and made a few improvements (like simply staying married). Then my own parents added their own improvements (not only stayed married, but stayed faithful). Now it’s up to me to continue with this direction.
Oh, and in a way, my siblings and I often served as our own 12-step group for each other. There was always 6 other people that were going through the same thing you were. There was always 6 other people who could relate to the problems you faced, you could talk things over without being cautious about it. Incidentally I can’t tell you how many times I hit the backspace button on this post because I didn’t think the information I typed was appropriate for non-family members to know. Yet I could call up one of my brothers or sister right now and have no concern whatsoever. Had I been one of only 2, I would really be messed up.
Finally, 7 kids meant I got to eat birthday cake 7 times a year! I tell you there just is no sin in making babies (legitimately, ahem).
Now go forth and put the “fun” in “dysfunctional”!:dancing: :bounce: :whacky: *
D
dwc
Guest
Black, I think you’ve missed my points. Thanks for the lecture on gratitude and what my parents did right, but you might notice that nowhere did I indicate I thought I’d turned out all bad or that they hadn’t done anything right.
I really don’t think the bit about “my generation” made much sense, frankly (I’m not sure what it was supposed to mean. My kids are grade school age, my youngest is kindergarten – I’m guessing my generation is yourgeneration). I wasn’t talking about the kids of my generation in general or even ALL the kids from my neighborhood’s families, but roughly the last half of the kids from individual families. My observation was that often the older kids turned out pretty well but at some point the level of parenting dropped off as additional kids came and the younger kids had problems as a result. None of your comments explain this coincidence. The outside culture was pretty much the same for all the kids, but the results are quite different.
I’ve said all I can say on this, and I think you just don’t agree that maybe some families have more than they can handle. That’s ok – we don’t have to agree. I only posted to offer another consideration to your list of things to consider while discerning whether or not to have another child.
I really don’t think the bit about “my generation” made much sense, frankly (I’m not sure what it was supposed to mean. My kids are grade school age, my youngest is kindergarten – I’m guessing my generation is yourgeneration). I wasn’t talking about the kids of my generation in general or even ALL the kids from my neighborhood’s families, but roughly the last half of the kids from individual families. My observation was that often the older kids turned out pretty well but at some point the level of parenting dropped off as additional kids came and the younger kids had problems as a result. None of your comments explain this coincidence. The outside culture was pretty much the same for all the kids, but the results are quite different.
I’ve said all I can say on this, and I think you just don’t agree that maybe some families have more than they can handle. That’s ok – we don’t have to agree. I only posted to offer another consideration to your list of things to consider while discerning whether or not to have another child.
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
Forgive me dwc if I took your posts too personal. I am pregnant with my seventh child, and your earlier posts stirred fears in me that maybe we went too far and we’re going to suddenly find ourselves abusive alcoholics because of all these children. Maybe we didn’t discern God wishes correctly, and He didn’t want us to have all of them. Maybe it was simply just nature taking its course rather than an active, personal God involved in our life, creating these beautiful supreme gifts of marriage. And after pondering those fears, I realized that it wasn’t the younger children’s fault if parents of large families are bad parents.
dwc:
I observe with my older children that they learn much about responsibility from helping take care of their younger brothers and sisters. It is probably no coincidence that the older ones turned out better, but that it may be a result of learned responsibility in caring for the younger ones. Perhaps if there hadn’t been younger brothers and sisters they would have turned out far worse. Maybe God used the gift of their younger brothers and sisters to save them from bad parenting.
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