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fix
Guest
No, that is not correct. The girl made herself the object of public shame through her actions.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
scottyp,
The school made the mortal sin of fornication a public shame–not the baby, who has not even been born.
The school made the mortal sin of fornication a public shame–not the baby, who has not even been born.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
There will be far less unwed mothers and babies if the schools and Churches returned to defending the faith as it should be…truth is truth and when we go against that truth we always reap consequences.
Our young people need to know that sex before marriage is simply not acceptable and cannot lead to anything good.
Our young people need to know that sex before marriage is simply not acceptable and cannot lead to anything good.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
CinciMom said:
I would have a little more sympathy for some of the posters on this topic if the school had actually said that it wasn’t allowing her to participate because she’d been very, very naughty.
It didn’t. It said it wasn’t allowing her to participate for “safety reasons.” What does that mean? Well, for starters, it means that the school either (a) wasn’t concerned about her “parading her sin” before the school community or (b) lied. Pick one.
I become more and more depressed with my church in general and this forum in particular as I see the increasing emphasis on scandal and purification. People sin. They are not supposed to, but they do.
God knows this and forgives. We are not called to present a perfect facade to the outside world, or even to each other. We know – or at least we say we know – that we are all sinners. We are a community of believers, and we are called to look after each other. We do not do that by conducting heresy hunts, by pointing fingers at sinners and saying “You! You are a sinner! You bring us into disrepute! Get out!”
A Catholic school is a community. Yes, it has rules that are necessary to maintain order and further the school’s mission. It also has a responsibility to its students to retain them in the community and draw them back when they leave it. I make exceptions for some students – the violent, the destructive, and so forth – but a proper faith community welcomes its erring and sinful members because otherwise, who would be left? “Where are they that accused thee?” and all that.
I do not think this leads to scandal. Everyone in that school already knew what had happened, I am sure. Nobody in the real world thinks the school endorses every choice its students make. It should come as a surprise to nobody that teenagers have sex outside marriage, even though the school tells them they shouldn’t and the Church condemns the practice.
I am glad she did what she did. I think the school exercised its authority irresponsibly and dishonestly in barring her from the ceremony and leaving her name out of the program and lying about why it did it. I think the school’s administration deserved to be embarrassed.
And I am fairly sure that, if she sends them a check in a few years, they’ll cash it.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
TPJCatholic said:
Me, I thought we valued life, regardless of the circumstances in which it was conceived. (Perhaps I should reread Humane Vitae?) My parents were not married when I was conceived, TPJCatholic. I doubt I am the only such person here.
It’s difficult to take that crack as anything but personal.
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felra
Guest
Penny Plain:
Interesting opinion …the Catholic school administration, entrusted with upholding the Catholic Christian mission, is the one to be blamed, accused and shamed for this student’s public manifestation of sin and open defiance.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
I simply don’t see how allowing her to walk across the stage at graduation honors her sin. A graduation (at least the ones I have been to) is not a referendum on a person’s entire life. It is not a referendum on a person’s political views or moral character. It is recognition of a person’s accomplishment in one facet of their life – education.
It is not an endorsement on their faith or morals. I assume non-Catholic students, even openly non-Catholic students, were allowed to graduate. Heck, I assume even students who professed atheism were allowed to graduate.
A high school graduation is not a sacrament. One is not required to be in a state of grace to receive it, nor does the assumption that the school implicitly endorses everything its graduates have done make the slightest bit of sense.
I am intrigued, though, by the assertion that “many other students witnessed her actions.” Which actions? The actions that led to her pregnancy? The mind boggles.
For those of you wishing to turn a high school graduation into a morality play, I suggest that there are worse ways to emphasize the perils of premarital sex by exposing the entire high school community to a drastic (although unspoken) reminder of its potential consequences.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
The Catholic school administration is entrusted with upholding the Catholic Christian (isn’t that redundant?) mission by means of lying? I think the school deserved to be defied.
As for “public manifestation of sin,” are you talking about (gasp!) the fact that she’s … preggers? Certainly nobody would have known about that if she hadn’t gone to the ceremony, right? I mean, can’t you just hear the dialogue back in March, or whenever it was she was removed from school for safety reasons?
Student 1: “Where’s Joanie?”
Student 2: “Gone.”
Student 1: “Gone? Why?”
Student 2: “Safety reasons.”
Student 1: “Well, she HAD been gaining weight. Perhaps her parents have checked her into an obesity clinic.”
Student 2: "That’s what I thought as well.
Please.
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snoopy
Guest
Do the boy’s parents need to be horse whipped for not teaching their son morals? I don’t believe the double standards.
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Brad
Guest
I think you are equating the situation where an obstinant and defiant promoter of sin is given a position of honor by being a key speaker at a college with a student being honored with a diploma.
If she earned her diploma, that is what the honor is for. You don’t lose your diploma because your fornicated, nor do you receive honor because of your fornication.
In the case of Hilary Clinton, she was given a position of status, honor, and prestige because of the very fact that she is a senator. This implies (without a debate format) that the shool accepts her polictial and moral positions. In the case of this girl, they should have just treated her like all the other sinners she was graduating with. I’m sure others fornicated too. The girl was not carrying her baby to make a statement that fornication is ok (I certainly hope not).
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Brad
Guest
I clarified (post #127) that I am not disagreeing that what she did after she was banned was wrong. I just don’t think she should have been banned - bad policy. How do you enforce such a policy? What if you don’t know someone is pregnant? Further, it’s a bad policy anyways. How do you discriminate between different kinds of sins? What is she was raped? How many other kids in that school fornicated? How do we know? The only effect of such a policy would be to encourage abortion rather than scandal to the shool. To me, the school has to bear the weight of not teaching the Catholic faith enough - that’s the bigger concern - stop worrying about it’s image and start worrying about souls.
Have we come to the point of celebrating non-murderers? Unfortunately, I think we have indeed come to that point, especially with youth brought up in the culture of death. It is rare such a youth chooses life - rare indeed. They usually don’t know much better.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Brad,
If the girl was pregnant in a public school, then I would be right with you in your opinion (the fornication would still be a mortal sin though).
The thing I think you and others are forgetting is that the girl graduated from a Catholic school and part of her studies was learning the Catholic faith. Part of learning the faith is to come to know how to actually live the faith. She utterly failed to show a good example of the Catholic faith by fornicating, and she compounded that sin (made it worse) by defiantly going against the orders of her administrators, as a Catholic student she failed completely.
Since she was attending a Catholic school, part of her work to receive her diploma is her studies in the faith and since she utterly failed in that area, I feel the school was doing the right thing to tell her not to walk…she is a miserable example–she simply presented a horrible Catholic example at that moment in her life and she should not have walked. Now, God’s forgiveness may have been given already through confession, yet nevertheless her example was still an utter failure as a Catholic student. Her academic work has nothing to do with this and she did receive her diploa…the school owes the students academic education, eduction and formation in the faith and if that is done properly the students receive a diploma. The girl was not denied a diplomas, she was denied the gift of being able to walk with her class because she had shamed herself and her school.
If the girl was pregnant in a public school, then I would be right with you in your opinion (the fornication would still be a mortal sin though).
The thing I think you and others are forgetting is that the girl graduated from a Catholic school and part of her studies was learning the Catholic faith. Part of learning the faith is to come to know how to actually live the faith. She utterly failed to show a good example of the Catholic faith by fornicating, and she compounded that sin (made it worse) by defiantly going against the orders of her administrators, as a Catholic student she failed completely.
Since she was attending a Catholic school, part of her work to receive her diploma is her studies in the faith and since she utterly failed in that area, I feel the school was doing the right thing to tell her not to walk…she is a miserable example–she simply presented a horrible Catholic example at that moment in her life and she should not have walked. Now, God’s forgiveness may have been given already through confession, yet nevertheless her example was still an utter failure as a Catholic student. Her academic work has nothing to do with this and she did receive her diploa…the school owes the students academic education, eduction and formation in the faith and if that is done properly the students receive a diploma. The girl was not denied a diplomas, she was denied the gift of being able to walk with her class because she had shamed herself and her school.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
Brad,
It is really very simple, whenever a case of mortal sin comes to the public knowledge of the student body and is verifiable, then there should be consequences.
It is really very simple, whenever a case of mortal sin comes to the public knowledge of the student body and is verifiable, then there should be consequences.
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Brad
Guest
It is not the school’s job to include or exclude a child from events unrelated to their sin. That is the job the parents. If she has bad parents, the school cannot fix that. If she was caught fornicating at the school(maybe she was) , the school could take severe disciplinary action, but not just because she is pregnant.
The schools are not the remedy for bad parents. This is the faulty way the government thinks. The churches are the remedy for bad parents, not the schools. And some parents will not go to church and they will pay for such sins, as will subsequent generations. The school can encourage the parents but it cannot fix them and it cannot be them.
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jim_orr
Guest
If “safety” is the reason for “banning” the expectant mother-graduate to “walk” then did the school prohibit other family members and guest who were pregnant from attending the graduation for “safety” as well?
Isn’t the “sin” the fornication that happened months before, and NOT the carrying of a child?
It seems to me that the public presence of the expectant mother in a school-Church ceremony is an affirmation of the historic teaching of the Church - God’s forgiveness and welcoming of the sinner.
It also seems that if any Church should wrap their arms around a young girl in this girl’s situation it should be the Catholic Church to show God’s forgiveness, the forgiveness the Church asks each of us to pray for one another in the Penitential Rite at the beginning of the Liturgy of every Mass.
Finally, the hypocrisy or double standard of allowing, allegedly, the fornicating “father” of the baby to “walk” during the graduation, as well as all the other formerly expectant mothers who secretly aborted their babies, or did so with the cooperation of their parent(s), is far more obvious than the extension of this girl’s abdomen…and I think some of those who applauded realized that.
Isn’t the “sin” the fornication that happened months before, and NOT the carrying of a child?
It seems to me that the public presence of the expectant mother in a school-Church ceremony is an affirmation of the historic teaching of the Church - God’s forgiveness and welcoming of the sinner.
It also seems that if any Church should wrap their arms around a young girl in this girl’s situation it should be the Catholic Church to show God’s forgiveness, the forgiveness the Church asks each of us to pray for one another in the Penitential Rite at the beginning of the Liturgy of every Mass.
Finally, the hypocrisy or double standard of allowing, allegedly, the fornicating “father” of the baby to “walk” during the graduation, as well as all the other formerly expectant mothers who secretly aborted their babies, or did so with the cooperation of their parent(s), is far more obvious than the extension of this girl’s abdomen…and I think some of those who applauded realized that.
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Scottyp
Guest
Sorry TPJ, but you’re contradicing yourself. You say that she failed at the education the school gave her. If that’s the case, as you lay it out, she shouldn’t have recieved a diploma at all.
Either the school is being hypocritical by your definition or she wans’t allowed to walk because she was an embarrassment.
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fix
Guest
Actually, the article did not state whether the girl thought her actions were sinful or not. In fact, her behavior may lead a reasonable person to conclude that she thinks fonication is a trivial matter.
It used to be that those who attended a Catholic school abided by the school’s code of conduct. The code may include penalties for moral turpitudes like fornication. That may mean dismissal, or prohibitions from partaking in certain school activities like graduation ceremonies.
The girl was dead wrong in acting out as she did. The school’s policy may be questioned, but in actuality I think more proscriptions are needed, not less.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
scottyp,
Nice try, but her faith studies was one element of her entire education. A person can fail a given class or even a couple and yet still graduate. No contradiction at all, she passed acadameically and did enought to graduate, yet she was a complete failure in the area of faith.
Nice try, but her faith studies was one element of her entire education. A person can fail a given class or even a couple and yet still graduate. No contradiction at all, she passed acadameically and did enought to graduate, yet she was a complete failure in the area of faith.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
jim,
We know very little about the father, other then he was present at the graduation. The school might have told him not to walk as well, he could have easily been defiant just like the girl/mother.
We know very little about the father, other then he was present at the graduation. The school might have told him not to walk as well, he could have easily been defiant just like the girl/mother.
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Brad
Guest
There are some good points here. Perhaps other punitive punishment could have been taken earlier to avoid a graduation confrontation. It’s hard to single her out and say that she was so much worse of an example than others in the school. I can name a few at my Catholic school that graduated - but they didn’t have anything protruding from their bellies to scandalize the school.
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