Premarital Cohabitation Situations - Am I Being Too Harsh?

[Miserissima]

I have no problem entering the home of a co-habitating couple. hHowever I will not allow a cohabitating couple who vists me to sleep in the same room.

I totally agree.

I didn’t mean to overlook that in my earler post. Someone who already knows that he or she is living outside of Grace should know better that to presume on anyone’s kindness or welcome.

If an unmarried couple expect to have a bedroom waiting for them in someone else’s home, they would be terribly bold.

In fact, giving them a room together would be putting them in a near occasion of sin, contributing to it. *That *would be scandalous.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

So sinning in private is better than sinning in public?

In the sense that sinning in public can lead others into sin, yes, it is better to sin in private – for the sake of other souls. The OP is rightly concerned that by visiting cohabitating couples in their sinful living arrangements, it will appear that she approves of their situation and that may cause others to believe, incorrectly, that the living situation is a-okay.

 

[BillP]

IThe OP is rightly concerned that by visiting cohabitating couples in their sinful living arrangements, it will appear that she approves of their situation and that may cause others to believe, incorrectly, that the living situation is a-okay.

Perhaps she could have some tee-shirts made bearing slogans that made it clear that she didn’t support the sinful behavior? Then she could wear these tee-shirts whenever she met the couples, or went over to their houses, or attended their wedding. That way NO ONE could POSSIBLY believe she condoned their sinful behavior.

 

[Em_in_FL]

You’ve missed the point entirely.

I disagree… I know exactly what point is trying to be made and I disagree with that point.

The very fact the OP is asking in her title “Am I being too harsh?” suggests she feels like she may be acting harshly… correct?

You cannot attract others to a faith of harshness.
You can attract others to a faith of love.

Again… I’ll pull out this from scripture…

3
Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle.
4
They said to him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.
5
Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. 2 So what do you say?”
6
They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. 3
7
4 But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
8
Again he bent down and wrote on the ground.
9
And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him.
10
Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11
She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more.”

 

[gmarie21]

In the sense that sinning in public can lead others into sin, yes, it is better to sin in private – for the sake of other souls. The OP is rightly concerned that by visiting cohabitating couples in their sinful living arrangements, it will appear that she approves of their situation and that may cause others to believe, incorrectly, that the living situation is a-okay.

Okay, everyone here who doesn’t step foot in the homes of those Catholics who don’t attend mass, raise their hands (not honoring the Sabbath). Or those who did not marry in the Catholic Church but are Catholic themselves (committing adultry). Or those who are on their second marriages without a decree of nullity from their firsts (committing adultry). Or those who say the Lord’s name in vein all the time (should not take the Lord, your God’s name in vein). Or those who try to keep up with the Joneses (coveting thy neighbor’s wife and goods). Or those who have a horrible problem with gossip (baring false witness against one’s neighbor). See what I’m getting at. All these sins I stated are mortal and public, so why step foot in the homes of these sinners?

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Perhaps she could have some tee-shirts made bearing slogans that made it clear that she didn’t support the sinful behavior? Then she could wear these tee-shirts whenever she met the couples, or went over to their houses, or attended their wedding. That way NO ONE could POSSIBLY believe she condoned their sinful behavior.

You and I both know that would not help the situation. The OP is looking for helpful suggestions, not sarcasm.

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Wow, so many replies! I’ll try to address a few.

My only question, for which I would need priestly guidance, is about assembling wedding favors or doing other wedding chores for the cohabitating couple. That *might *be okay, as long as you are not doing it *inside *the cohabitating home, because you are supporting their making a sinful situation right.

This is what I thought, that helping my little sis do wedding stuff would be okay, as long as I didn’t do it all while in her home. She has since agreed to do everything at my hotel room, should I be able to afford the trip.

I found a Q&A in the Catholic Answers Book Vol II that will apply here: “As long as you are clear about your concern for their salvation, you need to make it clear that whatever you do is on the conditionthat the the concerned part(ies) recognize that what they are doing is sinful and you hope that they will make a sincere effort to rectify their situations.”

That’s part of my struggle, though, is that I’m the only one saying that what they’re doing is wrong, so they just think I’m the one who’s wrong. If I accept invitations to their homes, then I’ll essentially be admitting that I am wrong (from their points of view). I don’t have a problem admitting wrongdoing, but I firmly believe that premarital sex and cohabitation are morally wrong behaviors.

I completely agree with the previous poster on this issue. Jesus DID eat and drink with sinners. Jesus DID meet people where they were. He did NOT condone the sin – nor should the OP – but He did not avoid the homes of sinners either.

If I misunderstand, or need to reread the Gospels (which is entirely possible ), I always thought that he didn’t avoid the homes of sinners who recognized their sins and were sorrowful. Aren’t there times when Our Lord turned people away because they weren’t sorry for their sins or wouldn’t acknowledge them? Maybe I have some reading to do.

Truely’s concern, and I think she’s right to give this much thought, is that she wants to avoid sharing in the scandal for the sake of her own soul AS WELL AS the souls of her family members. At the same time, she wants to maintain high levels of charity and humility. This is a very fine line to walk, and she does well to seek counsel, esp. from her priest. She is obviously seeking to “let Him increase and herself decrease”, and this is very commendable.

Thank you, Consecrated, this is indeed my concern, for all souls involved. Thanks for seeing that in my posts. :hug3: I truly am not trying to be mean, just truthful and faithful.

The OP is rightly concerned that by visiting cohabitating couples in their sinful living arrangements, it will appear that she approves of their situation and that may cause others to believe, incorrectly, that the living situation is a-okay.

This is exactly my fear. My DH thought I was being too concerned about sinning, which got me doubting myself.

The very fact the OP is asking in her title “Am I being too harsh?” suggests she feels like she may be acting harshly… correct?

I am afraid that I may be acting harshly, but only because of a discussion I had with my DH. Prior to speaking with him about it, I was 100% confident in my decisions. Being a relatively new Catholic, I get teased (friendly teasing) for being “such a convert,” and for being so concerned with the rules. But God’s rules are so important. I just want to make sure I’m not missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Miserissima]

Okay, forgive the length of this post. I tried to make an appointment with my priest this morning, but his secretary left early for the day, and I can’t call back until Monday.

Hi Truly,

Did you get an appointment yet? I’m curious to know what your pastor will advise.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I am afraid that I may be acting harshly, but only because of a discussion I had with my DH. Prior to speaking with him about it, I was 100% confident in my decisions. Being a relatively new Catholic, I get teased (friendly teasing) for being “such a convert,” and for being so concerned with the rules.
But God’s rules are so important.
I just want to make sure I’m not missing the forest for the trees.

Matthew 23:34

34
When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35
and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking,
36
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37
He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

 

[Consecrated]

So sinning in private is better than sinning in public?

It has nothing to do with “better” or “worse” sins. We all know that both contraception and fornication are, objectively, grave sins. However, since a big part of marriage is the public declaration of fidelity to each other, when they live together as man and wife before they make that public declaration, they are then sinning publicly (provided that the 3 things necessary for sin are present), which gives the additional element of scandal to an already grave sin. Contraception has no such inherent public-ness about it, boasting notwithstanding. Does this make sense?

Thinking more about the question of whether one is better than the other, it occurs to me that Christ did say “It is better that you should throw yourself into the water with a millstone around your neck that to lead one of these little ones to sin.” (or something to that effect.) It puts in perspective the serious responsibility we have to others to avoid making a sin look alright.

 

[catholicrocks]

While I totally agree with where you are coming from (OP), I also think that you have to be careful in alienating your family.

My sister and I have a difficult time sometimes, as well as my brother and I. I’m considered the rigid Catholic in my family circle. My brother is not currently practicing the faith, (but, I am SO trying to pray him back! ) and my sister married a man who is a Freemason, and who is also not shy about his disdain for the Catholic Church. I express to my brother every time I see him that I believe he should be practicing his faith, and I invite him to meet us for Mass. He hasn’t, but I keep trying to nudge him in a positive way. I have made him 100% aware that I disagree with his turning his back on the faith and his living arrangements with his girlfriend. I have also expressed my concern for my sister and my niece who is also my goddaughter. She was baptized in the Church, thank God, but they do not regularly attend Mass. I ask my sister about it every weekend, and let her know that she needs to get her butt to church, with my goddaughter. I understand that it’s difficult to do on her own with no support from her husband, but she knew that when she married him.

Anyway, my point is that yes, you absolutely should make it known that you in no way condone the choices they have made, and take the opportunities that you can to encourage them and to pray for them always. But, think about what you are missing too. You are punishing the people you love, and you are punishing yourself by missing out on the short time you have with them here on this earth. It’s not changing anything, and it’s only driving a bigger wedge between you and them, and them and the Church (I know you said you are the only ones who are Catholic, but I mean that they will only resent the faith and maybe even you).

Please don’t think I’m telling you to go soft on them, and to abandon what the Church teaches, but I’m also saying that you should really think about it b/c your family is always going to be your family, even when they do things that are wrong.

I had an awesome priest friend who was tough, hardcore, SO faithful. He was in seminary while I was in college, and he always listened to my crying and stupid stories about the stupid things I did and all the mistakes I made. He never once let me slide; he ALWAYS called me on it. But, he never stopped loving me and never cut me off either. He loved me unconditionally, and told me to get my act together every time he had the chance. He stuck by me because that’s what true friends do.

This is SO long - I’m sorry about that!

 

[Em_in_FL]

Thinking more about the question of whether one is better than the other, it occurs to me that Christ did say “It is better that you should throw yourself into the water with a millstone around your neck that to lead one of these little ones to sin.” (or something to that effect.) It puts in perspective the serious responsibility we have to others to avoid making a sin look alright.

Very true… but this can be done without shunning the sinner.

Look at the OP’s situation…
None of these people were raised in the faith (with the exception of the DH’s friend’s girlfriend)…
How are they to KNOW that this type of behavior is unacceptable? They’ve never been taught this! Society doesn’t teach that cohabitation is inappropriate!
So what do these people see?
They just see someone who has recently converted to Catholicism and now won’t come to their house. How do you think that makes them feel? Pretty bitter, I’m sure! Not exactly a great way of evangelizing, in my opinion…

How do you bring these people to a better understanding of the faith? First, by showing them love. Spend time with them, be kind to them… treat them with respect. And when the timing is right state your beliefs… “You know, I have a really hard time seeing you guys live together before you get married”… explain why!
If you don’t share your thoughts for WHY you believe these things they’ll look at you like you’re self-righteous and better than they are!

TEACH THEM… if you have their respect, they’ll listen!

 

[Consecrated]

Matthew 23:34

You have quoted a beautiful passage. It is also good to remember that a big part of Love, of Christian Charity, is the desire that all may be saved. Sometimes, it IS loving to point out the sinfulness, as taught by Christ through the Church (not made up by myself), of a situation/behavior. This must always be done in prayer and humility, with the un-erring inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Sometimes, we do mess up, speak out of turn, act without virtue, and for those times we must seek forgiveness, hope against hope that Jesus has repaired the harm we have done, and return to doing our best at acting like Christ. Also, the only way to be prepared for those times of evangelizing that take us by surprise is to remain in a spirit of prayer throughout our day, and our lives, and to be constantly practicing acting with virtue… we must make it a habit, so that even our knee-jerk reactions are Christlike! Simple, right? I am so far from that point, as my DH and children could tell you .

 

[catholicrocks]

Very true… but this can be done without shunning the sinner.

Look at the OP’s situation…
None of these people were raised in the faith (with the exception of the DH’s friend’s girlfriend)…
How are they to KNOW that this type of behavior is unacceptable? They’ve never been taught this! Society doesn’t teach that cohabitation is inappropriate!
So what do these people see?
They just see someone who has recently converted to Catholicism and now won’t come to their house. How do you think that makes them feel? Pretty bitter, I’m sure! Not exactly a great way of evangelizing, in my opinion…

How do you bring these people to a better understanding of the faith? First, by showing them love. Spend time with them, be kind to them… treat them with respect. And when the timing is right state your beliefs… “You know, I have a really hard time seeing you guys live together before you get married”… explain why!
If you don’t share your thoughts for WHY you believe these things they’ll look at you like you’re self-righteous and better than they are!

TEACH THEM… if you have their respect, they’ll listen!

Awesome post! Well said…

 

[Truly_Beloved]

Did you get an appointment yet? I’m curious to know what your pastor will advise.

No, Father wasn’t in when I called, so I had to leave a message.

Thinking more about the question of whether one is better than the other, it occurs to me that Christ did say “It is better that you should throw yourself into the water with a millstone around your neck that to lead one of these little ones to sin.” (or something to that effect.) It puts in perspective the serious responsibility we have to others to avoid making a sin look alright.

I’ll have to go diggin’ in my Catechism, but I’m positive there’s references in there, too, about being careful to not make sin look okay.

 

[Consecrated]

Very true… but this can be done without shunning the sinner.

Look at the OP’s situation…
None of these people were raised in the faith (with the exception of the DH’s friend’s girlfriend)…
How are they to KNOW that this type of behavior is unacceptable? They’ve never been taught this! Society doesn’t teach that cohabitation is inappropriate!
So what do these people see?
They just see someone who has recently converted to Catholicism and now won’t come to their house. How do you think that makes them feel? Pretty bitter, I’m sure! Not exactly a great way of evangelizing, in my opinion…

How do you bring these people to a better understanding of the faith? First, by showing them love. Spend time with them, be kind to them… treat them with respect. And when the timing is right state your beliefs… “You know, I have a really hard time seeing you guys live together before you get married”… explain why!
If you don’t share your thoughts for WHY you believe these things they’ll look at you like you’re self-righteous and better than they are!

TEACH THEM… if you have their respect, they’ll listen!

I am in full agreement with you! Still, sometimes it’s hard to immediately see the best way of approaching a particular situation, which I think is why the OP came here, and is going to her priest.

 

[Miserissima]

I’ll have to go diggin’ in my Catechism, but I’m positive there’s references in there, too, about being careful to not make sin look okay.

I think these are the references you’re looking for:

newadvent.org/cathen/13506d.htm

newadvent.org/summa/3043.htm

 

[catholicrocks]

Oh, and P.S. I think it’s pretty wrong that the rehearsal dinner is going to be at their house when they SO totally know your stand on the matter, and would put you in that position anyway.

 

[Consecrated]

Thank you, Consecrated, this is indeed my concern, for all souls involved. Thanks for seeing that in my posts. :hug3: I truly am not trying to be mean, just truthful and faithful.

No prob.
Thanks for the hug!

 

[gmarie21]

Oh, and P.S. I think it’s pretty wrong that the rehearsal dinner is going to be at their house when they SO totally know your stand on the matter, and would put you in that position anyway.

It’s their wedding, not the OPs. They can have the event anyway they choose just like OP can choose to not attend.