Premarital Sex

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casslean said:
Because married spouses will usually own property jointly, either because they have chosen to or because the law presumes that they do. But property ownership and distribution have NOTHING to do with defining marriage -** the parties are not married BECAUSE they own property jointly, they own property jointly BECAUSE they are married.**

And as an experienced family lawyer, I can assure you that lots of divorces get processed without any division of property, because there was no property to own.
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Meaning?

So what changed after they were married and what did they agree to? It isnt government benefits-marriage existed before that.
 
Sky_River said:
Meaning?

So what changed after they were married and what did they agree to? It isnt government benefits-marriage existed before that.
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We’ve already explained this over and over. Marriage is a man and a woman agreeing to spend their lives with one another for the good of each other and for procreation.
 
Sky_River said:
Meaning?

So what changed after they were married and what did they agree to? It isnt government benefits-marriage existed before that.
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I think Cass is saying that poor people with no property get divorced.

Marriage is a sacrament.
Property is incidental to the sacrament, in the eyes of the Church.

In the eyes of the world, not so much.
 
Sky_River said:
Why exactly is it a sin? this issue confuses me more than anything else because it’s the only sin that can be a non-sin in a different set of circumstances. How does sharing property and money make a sin into something sacred?
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It is not the sharing of property and money that makes it sacred–that makes the marital act something permissible. It is the exchanging of vows, the exchange of persons in the covenant of marriage that makes it sacred. Marriage isn’t just a contract between two persons–it is much more than that.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
Sky_River said:
Meaning?

So what changed after they were married and what did they agree to? It isnt government benefits-marriage existed before that.
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I’ll tell ya what. I’ll give ya what your asking for. Go out and make love outside this social and religious dogma construct called “Marriage” because what IS MARRIAGE ANYWAY MAN :: passes doobie to the left".

You call yourself Catholic and yet continue to live outside a Catholic lifestyle knowing full well what the Church teaches. Question it all ya want but thank heavens both the Good Book and our Catechisms can simply define the guidelines for what sexy time is outside of this thing called “Marriage”.

A Sin. Something that is against Gods law and the divine life. You can either accept this or not but the choice is yours. That’s what’s great about being human. However like other areas of life unfortunately we get to live out our consequences.

Trust me I’m not the greatest saint. I have two kids out of wedlock. But I’ll call a spade a spade.👍 instead of saying “BUT what’s actually a spade” or some other copout to avoid the truth.

Cafeteria catholic or not…That’s no excuse. Do as you please. You are going to anyway :rolleyes:
 
As Catholics, we are to honor God in our singleness, in our dating, and in our married life.

God created sex to be the super glue between husband and wife. It is the means of grace that helps couples through those rough times and rough years. When we apply the super glue before it’s time it makes it hard to think straight, during a time when we really need to look at the other person soberly, and ourselves too. Many people have entered into a marriage that did not honor God during dating nor in marriage, and the amount of divorces are a testament to this.

If your friend was dating a person who could not live within their very comfortable means, you would be able to give them sound advice. Because you’ve already bonded yourself to him, your discernment for yourself is darkened.

Please honor God with how you live your life and teach others to do the same. Be generous with God and He will be generous with you. God bless and guide you.
 
MarkInOregon said:
It is not the sharing of property and money that makes it sacred–that makes the marital act something permissible. It is the exchanging of vows, the exchange of persons in the covenant of marriage that makes it sacred. Marriage isn’t just a contract between two persons–it is much more than that.

The peace of Christ,
Mark
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It is a SACRED COVENANT!!! God Bless, Memaw
 
1ke said:
This is a serious dealbreaker, IMHO.

I don’t understand why these are necessary. #2 is a non-starter for Catholics. You shouldn’t be having sex at all, period.

Well a lifestyle of travel and motorcycles for one who can’t afford it… sounds like standard “living above his means” to me.

Um. Yes.

You really have to ask this?

Neither of you sounds ready for marriage. I’m shocked the diocese indicated a prenuptial agreement was allowable-- especially since you are trying to shield yourself from his debts.

Red flags abound. Money, lifestyle, premarital sex, basically I don’t get it. Get your life together before you get engaged to anyone.
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👍 Cannot say any more or better than this. LOTS of red flags IMHO. If you describe yourself as a cafeteria Catholic, then get it together!!! DO NOT BE LUKEWARM- God will spew you out!! Be on FIRE for Him!
 
Sky_River said:
In Jude its mentioned as one of Sodom and Gommorah’s sins, but is it ever directly mentioned in the Old Testament as a sin or crime?
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If the woman was consensual and they were found out (of course) then the man had to pay the “Bride-Price” and could marry her if the father agreed, if not he had to pay the money (Exo 22:16,17).

If a man took a virgin by force he had to pay money, marry her and could never divorce (Deu 22:28,29).

If the groom found the new bride was not a virgin, he could complain to the elders, and if true, the woman was stoned in front of her father’s house (Deu 22:20,21).
 
Sky_River said:
In Jude its mentioned as one of Sodom and Gommorah’s sins, but is it ever directly mentioned in the Old Testament as a sin or crime?
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Sky, I think you’re fishing for justification for your particular sin. We ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God, so I’m not saying I’m not sinful. What I am saying is that this thread has repeatedly told you that sex outside of the Sacrament of Marriage is, for a practicing Catholic, a sin - a mortal one that requires the Sacrament of Confession for absolution…and true repentance.

If you fail to see that, then you are trying to justify your sin in your own mind. Your conscience is telling you it’s wrong, and you’re refusing to listen.

In addition to that, the fact that your boyfriend has so many financial issues would be, for me at least, a HUGE problem and I would not want to marry anyone who cannot get their finances straight.
 
Here’s one for the ages that is totally appropriate, in all cases!!

“Once the Catholic accepts the eternal truths of Christ, he is free to accept all the nonessential beliefs he pleases. He can be a monarchist or a republican; he can live solitary and alone on a pillar like Simon, or he can busy himself on the streets of Paris like a Vincent de Paul; he can accept Einstein or reject him; he can believe in the gold standard or the silver standard; he can play cards and dance, or he can abstain from them; he can drink moderately or he can be prohibitionist. He is like a man living on a great island in the sea on which he may roam and exercise his freedom in a thousand and one games, but only on condition that he obey the only law that is posted there: Do not jump over the walls.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen (Communism and the Conscience of the West)
 
schoolteacher68 said:
Code: 
 ...is it really that bad as Catholics to have sex outside of marriage in our situation...we can't have kids (he was snipped 10 years ago) and we're not promiscuous with other partners...I guess I am a cafeteria Catholic and he deserves someone closer to God than me...
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…
 
casslean said:
Because married spouses will usually own property jointly, either because they have chosen to or because the law presumes that they do. But property ownership and distribution have NOTHING to do with defining marriage - the parties are not married BECAUSE they own property jointly, they own property jointly BECAUSE they are married.

And as an experienced family lawyer, I can assure you that lots of divorces get processed without any division of property, because there was no property to own.
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Are property and assets (in this context) the same thing?
 
goout said:
What do you mean by “property and assets” in this context?
(it’s a fun game you play 🙂 )
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Property distribution in a marriage is a very 20th century construct, and has nothing at all to do with the validity of marriage, biblically or otherwise.
 
Sky_River said:
Is it fornication if there is a civil union?
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Someone who has sexual relations with someone they do not believe in good faith that they’ve married is committing fornication. For a Catholic, a civil union would not be a marriage in good faith, because a Catholic has a duty to learn what constitutes a valid marriage for a Catholic and to follow the laws of the Church concerning marriage. (You could argue whether the Catholic is guilty of not forming his or her conscience concerning grave matters of moral law rather than fornication, but that is splitting hairs.)

Having said that, a civil union or a civil marriage can be both an encumbrance on a Catholic that prevents their freedom to marry someone else and yet also NOT a valid marriage. A Catholic who is legally married in the eyes of the state is not free to marry someone else, even if they are not married in the eyes of the Church. They have to dissolve the legal encumbrance before they are free to enter a valid marriage.
 
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