Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte

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as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation.

How was the workshop? Can you share anything with us?
The workshop was very helpful to me. I took a lot of notes which I think will come in handy as we get closer to the time of the new translation being used in our parishes.

This morning I’m heading off to a work day at church and Vespers tonight and I try to avoid internet on Sunday so I’m not sure I’ll get back to this before Monday. But I wanted to start the new thread so people don’t head off topic on the other thread. 🙂 (Do I ever regret even mentioning this workshop in that OP there!)

So, meanwhile, did anyone else here go to the workshop?
 
The workshop was very helpful to me. I took a lot of notes which I think will come in handy as we get closer to the time of the new translation being used in our parishes.

This morning I’m heading off to a work day at church and Vespers tonight and I try to avoid internet on Sunday so I’m not sure I’ll get back to this before Monday. But I wanted to start the new thread so people don’t head off topic on the other thread. 🙂 (Do I ever regret even mentioning this workshop in that OP there!)

So, meanwhile, did anyone else here go to the workshop?
I guess my concern about having Dan Schutte or anyone else afilliated with a publishing house presenting these seminars is that, more often than not, they will give their house’s spin (or their own) on the subject matter and pay brief lip servcies to the Church’s authoritative documents. I experienced this first-hand back in March when a composer was brought in to discuss sacred music, but, it amounted to what I considered to be a self-promotion of his and his publisher’s works.

In my opinion, it is better to rely on what the CDWDS, ICEL, Vox Clara and the USCCB have already published. Furthermore, ICEL already has the new translations set to music and they are wonderful.
 
Thanks 5Loaves. I look forward to your info.
BG, is there any way to get a look/listen at the new settings you mentioned?
I started to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you mentioned them.
My “hope” is increasing.
Thanks be to God.
 
Thanks BG! I just looked at it. So very simple and beautiful. Something to be looked forward to! I wonder what the Schutte workshop had to say in regard to this.
 
Thanks BG! I just looked at it. So very simple and beautiful. Something to be looked forward to! I wonder what the Schutte workshop had to say in regard to this.
Probably nothing, as I suspect that he was probably going over his own settings (of course, in fairness, the OP has not been able to post what happened–I am just going on my own experience with this situation). The priests that I have sent the ICEL settings too are overjoyed. One, in particular, is tired of the responsorial Gloria and is anxous to get the new ICEL settings going.
 
I guess my concern about having Dan Schutte or anyone else afilliated with a publishing house presenting these seminars is that, more often than not, they will give their house’s spin (or their own) on the subject matter and pay brief lip servcies to the Church’s authoritative documents. I experienced this first-hand back in March when a composer was brought in to discuss sacred music, but, it amounted to what I considered to be a self-promotion of his and his publisher’s works.

In my opinion, it is better to rely on what the CDWDS, ICEL, Vox Clara and the USCCB have already published. Furthermore, ICEL already has the new translations set to music and they are wonderful.
yep, geez, just Schutte us now,
 
(Prayers for my daughter, hard times which kept me from posting yesterday. We were blest to venerate the heart of St. John Vianney at the Cathedral Sunday which was a great gift.)

Back to the Workshop. I’ll just post some of his main points from my notes. It was an interesting and useful workshop for me in terms of working in RCIA. For the folks who came expecting music I’m not sure how much it served their interests. See the agenda on the workshop website.

I already asked did anyone else here went to the workshop and no one has responded so I’ll take that as a “no”. I didn’t ask Dan if he is offering it other places, that would have been a good question to ask.

He began with focusing on music ministers are shepherds. The translation set to music will be perhaps the first introduction people will have to the new translation. Bringing the “heart of a shepherd” as a music director means the need to not impose her/his opinion, the need to be sensitive to all the varied responses that are out there and will come when the new translation comes into the parish. This shepherd theme was like the book ends for the workshop. It was returned to at the end before we got to the music and text of the Mass with the new translations. At the end he suggested 5 broad categories of the faithful in terms of their responses to the new translation: the indifferent, the sad/grieving, the rebellious/angry, the skeptical/distrusting, and the happy/enthusiastic. The value of listening to their stories in terms of their own reaction to the changes is an important part of having the “heart of a shepherd”.

So that conversation was both the beginning and the ending of the presentation. At the beginning he merely brought our attention to the reactions that are out there and coming. At the end we “brainstormed” about the different ways to be helpful to people who have these very different responses.

“What are the fruits of the Spirit?” he asked. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Those become the weather vane for whether we’re staying in touch with the working of the Holy Spirit.

After the introduction he reviewed briefly the history of revisions of the Roman Missal beginning with the Council of Trent and Pope Pius V promulgating the 1570 Roman Missal.

He said that the vision of worship at the Second Vatican Council was not a new vision, but that an earlier vision had in some ways become less visible and the intent of the Second Council was to clear away what had over time obscured the vision of the Mass. The risen Christ is presider. The new translation flows from that vision, that tradition that Christ is exercising His priesthood in our midst.

“Lex orandi lex credendi” Following that path, the words we pray matter and the bishops have felt the importance of looking carefully at those words. The present translation is not doctrinally clear, it does not sufficiently convey the Holy, the transcendent, the sacred. It has a greater focus on the imminent presence of God. Expression of both the transcendence and the imminence of God are needed.

The language of the Holy Mass should have a different quality from our daily language.
The current translations doesn’t make clear the direct use of Sacred Scripture; the images and metaphors of God are “watered down”.
Present prayers are not so much translations from the Latin, they are more paraphrases.
The Roman Missal has come through generations and generations of Christians coming together to pray. Some of those prayers are prayers of the 1st Century Christians who were in Christ’s presence. Mere paraphrases of those are not good enough.

He then talked about the method of translating the bishops used for the new translations the method used for the current translation. I have posted about this elsewhere and won’t repeat that here. As an interpreter myself this was definitely an “Aha!” moment for me where many things fell into place regarding the language of the current translation.

Finally, we looked at Schutte’s “Mass of Christ the Savior” music. He pointed out that in composing a “Mass” (ie musical settings for all the parts of the Mass) composers writing for the Ordinary Form up to now were permitted to add a word for example if the music had an extra beat when singing one verse. Example: “We thank you Lord”, composers were permitted to use “We thank you O Lord”. This is not permitted with the music for the new Mass. The lyrics must exactly match word for word the Missal, although they may repeat a word, so “Thou art holy!” could be sung “Thou art holy, holy!” (I hope I’ve given accurate examples because I didn’t write down in my notes the examples he gave.)

Regarding Schutte’s “Mass of Christ the Savior”, he pointed out some considerations he brought to encourage full participation (those are my words). For the priest’s singing of “The mystery of faith”, there are 3 different tunes for that, one that pairs with each of the 3 different acclamations: A – We proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.
or B – When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come again.
or C – Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection, you have set us free.
This discrete music will cue the people which Memorial Acclamation to respond with. Currently the people may be listening for some other cue, i.e. the first words from the priest, to know which Acclamation to sing.

(continued in a second part, max characters exceeded)
 
(Continued from first part of this post)

(At present a translation is not determined for the US of “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”.)

His “Mass of Christ the Savior” includes sung parts for all the dialogues.
Also in his Gloria, the longest piece we chant in the Mass, Schutte has made suggestions for antiphonal singing parts for men and for woman. (I am a fan of antiphonal singing so I always welcome a good use of it.)

At the time of the workshop permission for use of the new Mass translations had not been granted. We did all get a hand out for his “Mass of Christ the Savior” which contained his compositions for the “Lord Have Mercy”, “Glory to God”, “Gospel Acclamation”, “Lenten Gospel Acclamation”, “Holy”, the three Memorial Acclamations, the “Great Amen”, and the “Lamb of God”

Again, looking at the hand out of these parts and singing these few parts of the Mass took up only about 10 minutes, so for those expecting this to be a workshop on the music it may have been a disappointment. I think his posted agenda on the workshop website made clear how little would be the focus on that part.

I hope this is helpful to those who are genuinely interested. As Dan pointed out we have a full spectrum of responses from the Faithful for the new translation. May we each ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit that we might bring that “heart of a shepherd” to understanding and sharing the value of the use of the new translation when it does come to our parishes next year.
 
(Continued from first part of this post)

(At present a translation is not determined for the US of “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”.)

His “Mass of Christ the Savior” includes sung parts for all the dialogues.
Also in his Gloria, the longest piece we chant in the Mass, Schutte has made suggestions for antiphonal singing parts for men and for woman. (I am a fan of antiphonal singing so I always welcome a good use of it.)

At the time of the workshop permission for use of the new Mass translations had not been granted. We did all get a hand out for his “Mass of Christ the Savior” which contained his compositions for the “Lord Have Mercy”, “Glory to God”, “Gospel Acclamation”, “Lenten Gospel Acclamation”, “Holy”, the three Memorial Acclamations, the “Great Amen”, and the “Lamb of God”

Again, looking at the hand out of these parts and singing these few parts of the Mass took up only about 10 minutes, so for those expecting this to be a workshop on the music it may have been a disappointment. I think his posted agenda on the workshop website made clear how little would be the focus on that part.

I hope this is helpful to those who are genuinely interested. As Dan pointed out we have a full spectrum of responses from the Faithful for the new translation. May we each ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit that we might bring that “heart of a shepherd” to understanding and sharing the value of the use of the new translation when it does come to our parishes next year.
The Gloria should really not be antiphonal. It should not be dragged out. It is a beautiful prayer on its own without having to do a sing-song to it. The ICEL settings keep the Gloria as is. In fact, the ICEL settings are by far superior to what most of the publishing houses have released.

5Loaves, I realize that you are excited about what you have learned. However, I am concerned about Schutte’s theology and his interpretation of the Second Vatican Council as it relates to liturgy. I think it is better to read books such as Spirit of the Liturgy and attend workshops that are not necessarily afiliated with a publishing house, as well as doing your own research through bonafide, orthodox sources.
 
Thanks 5Loaves! That was a big project for you, and I appreciate all the work you did
in relating the whole thing. And sincere prayers for your daughter.

Do you think this is a big turn around in approach by the workshop leader/publishing company? It sounds like very specific problems have been addressed in the form of
rules (eg, no extra words are to be added, etc.), thereby forcing the composer to work within specific parameters if he expects his works to be published/approved/used. This sounds like a big step in the right direction.

Did the examples you heard sound like they were composed (musically) along the
same lines as his other works, or were they more traditional sounding?

I have to read over your post more carefully, but I wanted to respond right away and thank you.

The heart of St. John Vianney! What a blessing. What a coincidence that you mentioned it: may I ask your prayers to that saint for me (for health and for my doctors)? I had a
very major cancer surgery last year on his Feast day, and have been doing well with all of my appts since then - my next one, ironically, is on Aug. 4th, and if all goes well, I will
not have to go back for about 9 months!

Thanks again for all of your info.
 
Finally, we looked at Schutte’s “Mass of Christ the Savior” music. He pointed out that in composing a “Mass” (ie musical settings for all the parts of the Mass) composers writing for the Ordinary Form up to now were permitted to add a word for example if the music had an extra beat when singing one verse. Example: “We thank you Lord”, composers were permitted to use “We thank you O Lord”. This is not permitted with the music for the new Mass. The lyrics must exactly match word for word the Missal, although they may repeat a word, so “Thou art holy!” could be sung “Thou art holy, holy!” (I hope I’ve given accurate examples because I didn’t write down in my notes the examples he gave.)
Actually, what he said is incorrect. Composers, like Schutte, took it upon themselves to add words to the official prayers. Sacrosanctum Concilium specitically states that no one, not even the celebrant, has the right to add anything to the Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum reiterated that. In fact, when I spoke to an official with the CDWDS regarding settings such as those written by Haugen, Schutte, Hurd, Farrel, et al, they told me that these were ilicit because they added words to the official texts and/or paraphrased them.
 
Actually, what he said is incorrect. Composers, like Schutte, took it upon themselves to add words to the official prayers. Sacrosanctum Concilium specitically states that no one, not even the celebrant, has the right to add anything to the Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum reiterated that. In fact, when I spoke to an official with the CDWDS regarding settings such as those written by Haugen, Schutte, Hurd, Farrel, et al, they told me that these were ilicit because they added words to the official texts and/or paraphrased them.
This is what gives me pause about the whole idea of someone like Schutte being held out as an expert on interpretation of Church documents. He, and others at OCP, made up their own rules including “permission” to change the words of the Agnus Dei, adding and rearranging tropes of responsorial psalms, giving “chorus” roles to parts of prayers, etc.

I disagree with Schutte about the idea that the musical settings will be people’s first experience with the new liturgy. The words of many of the sung parts of Mass have been so far removed from the actual translation for years. It will be the spoken parts of Mass such as the Creed, where most people will first experience the change. (I know you ***can ***sing the Creed, but in the last 40 years, in several states and quite a few countires, I doubt I have heard the Creed sung more than 3 or 4 times).
For the priest’s singing of “The mystery of faith”, there are 3 different tunes for that, one that pairs with each of the 3 different acclamations: A – We proclaim your death, O Lord, and profess your Resurrection until you come again.
or B – When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your death, O Lord, until you come again.
or C – Save us, Savior of the world, for by your Cross and Resurrection, you have set us free.
This is a hopeful sign. I was beginning to think that “Christ has Died, Christ has Risen, Christ will come again” was going to be left in the Missalettes, using the LA gambit. (re glass chalices - 'We asked, the Vatican said “no” but since they haven’t said “H**L no,” we are still going to use them.) 😃
 
Actually, what he said is incorrect. Composers, like Schutte, took it upon themselves to add words to the official prayers. Sacrosanctum Concilium specitically states that no one, not even the celebrant, has the right to add anything to the Mass. Redemptionis Sacramentum reiterated that. In fact, when I spoke to an official with the CDWDS regarding settings such as those written by Haugen, Schutte, Hurd, Farrel, et al, they told me that these were ilicit because they added words to the official texts and/or paraphrased them.
Sounds like Schutte was talking about repeating words that are already in the text, not adding words that are not in the text. Repeating words is fine, BenedictGal, and before you post to disagree why don’t you try counting the Kyries in just, say, any one given voice of Palestrina’s Missa Papae Marcelli and post that number along with whatever quotes from liturgical documents you’d like to dredge up. As an extra-special Wednesday bonus, here’s the text of the soprano line of the Sanctus in the same Mass:
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Pleni sunt coeli et terra,
Pleni sunt coeli et terra
Gloria tua, gloria tua, gloria tua,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna, Hosanna in excelsis.
 
Sounds like Schutte was talking about repeating words that are already in the text, not adding words that are not in the text. Repeating words is fine, BenedictGal, and before you post to disagree why don’t you try counting the Kyries in just, say, any one given voice of Palestrina’s Missa Papae Marcelli and post that number along with whatever quotes from liturgical documents you’d like to dredge up. As an extra-special Wednesday bonus, here’s the text of the soprano line of the Sanctus in the same Mass:
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Dominus Deus Sabaoth,
Pleni sunt coeli et terra,
Pleni sunt coeli et terra
Gloria tua, gloria tua, gloria tua,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna in excelsis,
Hosanna, Hosanna in excelsis.
While one can repeat, one cannot do wholesale edits on his own authority, which is what Schutte, Haugen, Hurd and Farrell have been doing with theirs.

For example, Haugen and Hurd both have:
God of power, God of might
which is not a part of the official text. Bernadette Farrel has:
who comes in the Lord’s own name
which is not a part of the Sanctus.

The St. Louis Jesuit Mass’ version of the Gloria:
Give glory to God in the highest
which is not the official text.
 
While one can repeat, one cannot do wholesale edits on his own authority, which is what Schutte, Haugen, Hurd and Farrell have been doing with theirs.

For example, Haugen and Hurd both have:

which is not a part of the official text. Bernadette Farrel has:

which is not a part of the Sanctus.

The St. Louis Jesuit Mass’ version of the Gloria:

which is not the official text.
So, then, you agree with Dan Schutte. Why you had to phrase it in the form of disagreement escapes me.
 
So, then, you agree with Dan Schutte. Why you had to phrase it in the form of disagreement escapes me.
No, Mark. You are misreading things. This is the justification that he gave for adding words to the official text:
Originally Posted by 5Loaves
Finally, we looked at Schutte’s “Mass of Christ the Savior” music. He pointed out that in composing a “Mass” (ie musical settings for all the parts of the Mass) composers writing for the Ordinary Form up to now were permitted to add a word for example if the music had an extra beat when singing one verse. Example: “We thank you Lord”, composers were permitted to use “We thank you O Lord”. This is not permitted with the music for the new Mass. The lyrics must exactly match word for word the Missal, although they may repeat a word, so “Thou art holy!” could be sung “Thou art holy, holy!” (I hope I’ve given accurate examples because I didn’t write down in my notes the examples he gave.)
The first part of the post states where Schutte said that “they could add extra words”. These words were not necessarily repeats of the text. For example, if the text states “We thank you, Lord”, Schutte’s argument would be that he could add “o” to fit the music.

It was never (and still is not) permitted to add words to the official text of the Church’s prayers that do not belong there.
 
So you agree with Dan Schutte about the state of things now, then. Wow, I actually doubted that you could ever be coerced into acknowledging that it was okay to repeat words in the official text! I felt so sure that you would deem it an illicit “addition.”
 
So you agree with Dan Schutte about the state of things now, then. Wow, I actually doubted that you could ever be coerced into acknowledging that it was okay to repeat words in the official text! I felt so sure that you would deem it an illicit “addition.”
Mark, please do not try to twist what I am saying. I do not agree with Dan Schutte on most of what he has stated. If you are trying to trip me up, you are going to try harder. I contacted the CDWDS back in December about the ilicit settings and they were in agreement that they were ilicit. Dan Schutte is trying to justify why he did what he did, but, somehow, his argument does not work.
 
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