Preparing Millenials For Marriage

[UbiCaritas]

A lifetime spent around successful marriages in all their charming imperfection, a realistic view of life that looks to get everyone’s needs met before seeing to unnecessary desires, an understanding of self that believes that loving others is the ultimate in self-realization, a willingness to learn to communicate and to live within restricted material means…

I guess learning a mature Christian attitude and seeing what successful marriages look like firsthand, as an inoculation against romantic and unattainable nonsense that is the enemy of both perseverance and contentment.

In the short term? Get communication going and make certain that important topics have at least come up between the couple, preferably well before the invitations have been ordered. Some of the biggest issues in marriage were never talked about beforehand.

So true. Sooooo true. I teach the mandatory pre-infant-baptism classes at my church. I often hear from couples that they simply never discussed things like whether or not their kids would be raised in the church.

Insofar as understanding of church teaching goes…sigh. Most of the time, it’s not their fault. An educated guess would put at least half of the couples in the class–probably closer to 60-70%–as not married in the Church. As part of the class, I encourage those (without, of course, singling anyone out) who aren’t married in the church to talk to Father or a deacon about getting things sorted out so that they can, among other things, receive the sacraments and be godparents. I have often been told that my class was the first time that many of the participants had ever heard of the Church thinking of marriage in the Church vs at the JP’s office/on the beach/what-have-you as being anything but a difference in venue. No one had ever told them. Sure, their living situations are problematic at best, but when the state of catechesis in the Church, from both parents and CCD programs, is so bad that they honestly have no idea at all that this is a problem…argh!

headdesk

(Needless to say, I don’t express this irritation to them; I gently explain in brief the Church’s teaching, and then mention that it’s not too involved a process to get a marriage convalidated, especially, as is often the case with this age group, when it’s a first marriage for both, and Deacon Fred is probably still in his office if you’d like to chat with him…?)

 

[EasterJoy]

So true. Sooooo true. I teach the mandatory pre-infant-baptism classes at my church. I often hear from couples that they simply never discussed things like whether or not their kids would be raised in the church.

Insofar as understanding of church teaching goes…sigh. Most of the time, it’s not their fault. An educated guess would put at least half of the couples in the class–probably closer to 60-70%–as not married in the Church. As part of the class, I encourage those (without, of course, singling anyone out) who aren’t married in the church to talk to Father or a deacon about getting things sorted out so that they can, among other things, receive the sacraments and be godparents. I have often been told that my class was the first time that many of the participants had ever heard of the Church thinking of marriage in the Church vs at the JP’s office/on the beach/what-have-you as being anything but a difference in venue. No one had ever told them. Sure, their living situations are problematic at best, but when the state of catechesis in the Church, from both parents and CCD programs, is so bad that they honestly have no idea at all that this is a problem…argh!

headdesk

(Needless to say, I don’t express this irritation to them; I gently explain in brief the Church’s teaching, and then mention that it’s not too involved a process to get a marriage convalidated, especially, as is often the case with this age group, when it’s a first marriage for both, and Deacon Fred is probably still in his office if you’d like to chat with him…?)

To be fair, anyone who has ever taught high school has heard the “no one ever told me that” complaint. Sometimes it is impossible to tell what someone has or hasn’t had the opportunity to learn. Their honest belief that they have never heard something or other has to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Just as it is right to hide your irritation, it is also right to take an “I guess you missed that day but we’ll fix it now” attitude towards an ignorant person’s previous teachers. You can just never tell, and it is water under the bridge. (When fixing a situation, most of the time nothing could be less important than assigning blame! )

 

[Xantippe]

To be fair, anyone who has ever taught high school has heard the “no one ever told me that” complaint. Sometimes it is impossible to tell what someone has or hasn’t had the opportunity to learn. Their honest belief that they have never heard something or other has to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Yes.

On the other hand, when people say that they didn’t have good marriage role models growing up, I tend to believe them.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes.

On the other hand, when people say that they didn’t have good marriage role models growing up, I tend to believe them.

Well, yes and no.

There are some sentiments out there that if Mom and Dad stayed together in spite of some persistent rough spot, they wasted their lives by not splitting up. The idea is that it is better to be “divorced and happy” instead of “together and miserable”

It spite of the truth that separation with the bond remaining is sometimes necessary, this is dangerous thinking on several counts. First of all, most people who have to go through a divorce are anything but happy even from a purely secular point of view. They take a financial hit that makes many of them bitter, they miss their kids, they get out of their marriages without an understanding of why the first marriage was so difficult, and so get themselves quickly into another relationship very much like the last. Secondly, finding contentment in this vale of tears requires an act of will. If you don’t decide that you are going to make the best of life’s bad situations, you are never going to magically find contentment. A lot of people do not get this. They think if they find the “right” job and the “right” home and the “right” partner, contentment will come to them. It does not work that way, at least not for long. How many people do you hear talk about these bad marriages and say not “they should have divorced” but instead “they could have been happy if they’d learned what they needed to know to avoid or work out their problems”?

On that account, I’d say that there are millennials who see their parents were in a bad marriage who do not have the first idea what their parents or their relatives or other couples they knew did right and what they did wrong.

An airplane crash can be very instructive to other pilots, even more instructive than flights that came home safely, but* only if the causes for the crash are correctly diagnosed and only if realistic counter-measures are put into place to prevent a repeat*.

People don’t go into each day in their marriage the way pilots get into their cockpits when they take a plane trip. They do not have that level of seriousness or that level of knowledge about avoiding crashes. They do not see damage to their relationships as something that must be avoided at all costs or maintenance of their marriages as something their lives depend upon.

Can you imagine how dangerous it would be to get into an airplane if pilots had the same attitudes as many people now getting married?

That is why marriage is so much more dangerous than air travel. Many of the youngest generation of marriageable age, unfortunately, don’t take much from that but a misplaced contempt for marriage and an irrational trust in their plans to live together without the benefit of marriage.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

That is why marriage is so much more dangerous than air travel. Many of the youngest generation of marriageable age, unfortunately, don’t take much from that but a misplaced contempt for marriage and an irrational trust in their plans to live together without the benefit of marriage.

In a way, the practical differences between cohabitation and marriage are treated have been shrinking for some time.

What you describe is risk aversion or mitigation. A failed marriage carries a huge price, and it’s not limited to 75% of one’s material possessions. We have witnessed a number of divorces “break” people for a period of time. As such, there is a real and significant danger to marriage that can not be discounted regardless of the theological permanence.

In a way, marriage in

Not sure if practical but I think the following might help.

1. Explain the advantages of marriage. What benefits are there that outweigh the inherent risks? Joint home ownership, bank accounts, and a host of other things do not require it.
2. Perhaps encourage discussion between millennials and both happily married and divorced couples. Basically, develop skills on wisely choosing a spouse and what to discuss before proposing. Pre-cana is way too late to discuss those topics.
3. Acknowledge the risks and downsides. As a male marriage is the riskiest thing I’ve ever done. There are real adjustments to living together (we didn’t cohabitate before engagement) and a number of downsides. But at times it appears that pro marriage side dismisses in a way that damages credibility.

 

[Xantippe]

1. Explain the advantages of marriage. What benefits are there that outweigh the inherent risks? Joint home ownership, bank accounts, and a host of other things do not require it.
2. Perhaps encourage discussion between millennials and both happily married and divorced couples. Basically, develop skills on wisely choosing a spouse and what to discuss before proposing. Pre-cana is way too late to discuss those topics.
3. Acknowledge the risks and downsides. As a male marriage is the riskiest thing I’ve ever done. There are real adjustments to living together (we didn’t cohabitate before engagement) and a number of downsides. But at times it appears that pro marriage side dismisses in a way that damages credibility.

1. I think that if anything, a lot of people are too keen on the material advantages of marriage. I wince whenever I hear of a couple getting married for medical insurance, not to mention all the gross gift grabs that people do these days.
2. I agree with you that marriage prep is already too late if the marriage itself is ill-advised. By the time the average couple is doing marriage prep, their minds are full of caterers, dresses, shoes, flowers, and deposits. If they should discover that they are actually profoundly unsuitable for each other, it’s really hard to stop the wedding train at that point.

I hesitate to come up with stuff for other people to do, but how about a marriage discernment retreat or a dating couples’ reading group that would read more nuts and bolts relationship books rather than high falutin’ high theology? You need the high falutin’ high theology, but it’s relatively easy in theory–the hard stuff is the practical stuff, like figuring out how to fight with your spouse or get them to understand when something is a Big Deal.

1. I agree that we need to be more honest about the downsides–some of time, your spouse is going to be selfish and stupid, some of the time you are going to be selfish and stupid, and some of the time BOTH of you are going to be selfish and stupid. So, what are you going to do when that happens?

With regard to not living together and adjusting, I think a little bit more talk about the nuts and bolts of that could be helpful (and probably even for the cohabitating). I would toss in some stuff about differing hygiene standards (frequency of haircuts, bathing, etc.), standards of domestic cleanliness (dishes washed nightly or paper plates? bathrooms cleaned weekly or quarterly? bedding changed weekly or quarterly?), reasonable chore division and the importance of re-divvying as life circumstances change, home “zoning” (carving out areas for a slob spouse to let it all hang out), plus finances (where each is, attitudes toward credit and saving, financial goals, the probable effects of having children, etc). That’s a lot of stuff and I don’t think you can do all of it (or even most of it) on-site, but you can definitely start the conversations.

I don’t think we ever talked about housekeeping standards before getting married. As newlyweds, I wanted us to clean roughly quarterly (basically whenever we had company), whereas my husband wanted to clean…pretty much never. Fortunately, we got housecleaning help a few years later.

The financial side of parenthood also deserves a lot of discussion. There is a lot of happy talk (here and elsewhere) with regard to young parenthood. However, I think we owe it to young couples to be real about what it means. So often, there’s a lot of hand-waving–just start your family and everything will be awesome!

 

[UbiCaritas]

To be fair, anyone who has ever taught high school has heard the “no one ever told me that” complaint. Sometimes it is impossible to tell what someone has or hasn’t had the opportunity to learn. Their honest belief that they have never heard something or other has to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Just as it is right to hide your irritation, it is also right to take an “I guess you missed that day but we’ll fix it now” attitude towards an ignorant person’s previous teachers. You can just never tell, and it is water under the bridge. (When fixing a situation, most of the time nothing could be less important than assigning blame! )

True. I will say, though, that when the person’s response isn’t to engage in the blame-game, but instead say, “Oh, cr*p, I had no idea…what do I have to do to get my marriage convalidated?” I tend to take them at their word.

Of course, the situation isn’t helped by the other two fairly common attitudes that appear–either a) “no one ever told me that, and we have a good marriage, albeit one not recognized by the Church, but now you’re saying that all that doesn’t mean anything,” or b) “well, they don’t ask if we’re married before we go to Communion, so we can go anyway.”

Ugh.

 

[Xantippe]

On that account, I’d say that there are millennials who see their parents were in a bad marriage who do not have the first idea what their parents or their relatives or other couples they knew did right and what they did wrong.

I’m 40, I’ve been married 17 years, and it’s only very recently that I started realizing how bad my parents’ example was for me in certain ways.

On the one hand, as a child, I always knew that my parents loved each other very much, but they set a bad example in a number of areas:

–they didn’t model joint decision making (I’m sure they did work things out when the kids weren’t around, but I never heard them do it)
–The disagreements I did hear just about always involved a lot of yelling (and screaming on a bad day)
–my dad made very little effort to control his temper at home (as he once told me, you have to control your temper at work with your boss, but it’s OK to lose it with your wife because she’ll forgive you!)
–they didn’t budget when I was a kid
–my mom put my dad on a pedestal to us kids and then my dad would be loudly critical and disrespectful of my mom within us kids’ hearing–with the result that it made it very difficult for me to respect my mom (duh)
–my mom frequently tried to withhold information from my dad when she knew the information would make him mad
–at least when I was a kid, there was a bit of a parent/child vibe to my parents’ relationship (since my mom has been working and they’ve done Dave Ramsey, the relationship seems to have evened out quite a bit)

From the very beginning, I knew that (even just for my own self-respect), I wasn’t going to be withholding information from my future husband, but a lot of the other issues are ones that I have belatedly realized were a problem in my own marriage–we didn’t start budgeting until we’d been married 9 years, I had a long period of childishness about money, and I’m still in the process of learning to control my temper and learn how to argue without yelling.

So, yeah, I totally relate to the idea that a bad example can be very damaging.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m 40, I’ve been married 17 years, and it’s only very recently that I started realizing how bad my parents’ example was for me in certain ways.

On the one hand, as a child, I always knew that my parents loved each other very much, but they set a bad example in a number of areas:

–they didn’t model joint decision making (I’m sure they did work things out when the kids weren’t around, but I never heard them do it)
–The disagreements I did hear just about always involved a lot of yelling (and screaming on a bad day)
–my dad made very little effort to control his temper at home (as he once told me, you have to control your temper at work with your boss, but it’s OK to lose it with your wife because she’ll forgive you!)
–they didn’t budget when I was a kid
–my mom put my dad on a pedestal to us kids and then my dad would be loudly critical and disrespectful of my mom within us kids’ hearing–with the result that it made it very difficult for me to respect my mom (duh)
–my mom frequently tried to withhold information from my dad when she knew the information would make him mad
–at least when I was a kid, there was a bit of a parent/child vibe to my parents’ relationship (since my mom has been working and they’ve done Dave Ramsey, the relationship seems to have evened out quite a bit)

From the very beginning, I knew that (even just for my own self-respect), I wasn’t going to be withholding information from my future husband, but a lot of the other issues are ones that I have belatedly realized were a problem in my own marriage–we didn’t start budgeting until we’d been married 9 years, I had a long period of childishness about money, and I’m still in the process of learning to control my temper and learn how to argue without yelling.

So, yeah, I totally relate to the idea that a bad example can be very damaging.

I mean when a bad example or even an imperfect example is used as reason to give up too soon, rather than to try harder or to “try smarter,” which is what you’re describing. As for those closer to perfection, they are sometimes dismissed as being beyond imitation, because “expectations have changed.” They don’t realize they are as free as their parents were to expect difficulties and to accept freely living within limited means.

 

[alphawoman]

Frankly, it starts at catechism. People need to deeply and voluntarily come to belief, and that comes from assiduous instruction.

Many “Catholics” don’t receive an adequate catechism growing up. IMHO, adult milestones like marriage and raising families present a wonderful opportunity for a do-over on the part of the greater church community to educate these adults gently and welcome them warmly. Each person has his or her unique values on at least a few issues that can be used as a hook to draw them into the faith. For some it’s the majesty of mass, for others the rich scholarship of Catholic tradition.

We need to stop treating evangelization as a short term proposition completed in a textbook, discrete fashion. The reality is that evangelization is a long term commitment and is largely idiosyncratic to the individual converting. Don’t expect overnight miracles. Let people be gently and gradually immersed in the faith on their own terms. Let them become part of the community and forge strong social ties with active parishioners. We will win over hearts and minds with incrementalism and by providing a living example of our faith. Thank God humans have such long life expectancies for these changes to occur! Don’t underestimate the power of simply having people attend mass.

For instance, take my family. My father spent the first nearly 60 years of life as notionally Catholic but non practicing, and my mother was a non practicing Christian Protestant. When I was on my journey to the Church, I invited them to attend mass with me socially. Fast forward 10 years and my mother has converted through RCIA. She participates in several ministries and leads an active prayer life. My father is still mostly inactive, but he does attend weekly mass with my mother, and I see subtle changes in his attitude in favour of church teaching in everyday situations. Although he lacks a good intellectual foundation in church teaching, he nevertheless manages to live the teachings very well, and is an incredibly generous person. God’s ways are mysterious and wonderful!

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

1. I think that if anything, a lot of people are too keen on the material advantages of marriage. I wince whenever I hear of a couple getting married for medical insurance, not to mention all the gross gift grabs that people do these days.

Sounds bizarrely short sighted to me. If both have good jobs then insurance is a moot point. Also, one-time gifts are small on in the scale of lifelong commitment. I remember just over 15 years ago my when the can opener and the blender broke that there marriage has now outlasted all their wedding gifts (~25 yrs, they are now 40+ years married)

I hesitate to come up with stuff for other people to do, but how about a marriage discernment retreat or a dating couples’ reading group that would read more nuts and bolts relationship books rather than high falutin’ high theology? You need the high falutin’ high theology, but it’s relatively easy in theory–the hard stuff is the practical stuff, like figuring out how to fight with your spouse or get them to understand when something is a Big Deal.

Not too sure about that being in any way related to the Church. As a non-Catholic, the level of involvement the Church puts into the formation of my marriage takes a great deal of patience on my part. Based on the tone of other non-Catholics at Engaged Encounter I suspect that such a retreat would be a tough sale. The things implied if my then girlfriend asked me to attend such a retreat would have damaged our relationship.

1. I agree that we need to be more honest about the downsides–some of time, your spouse is going to be selfish and stupid, some of the time you are going to be selfish and stupid, and some of the time BOTH of you are going to be selfish and stupid. So, what are you going to do when that happens?

The same thing as when you dated? Presumably a couple doesn’t make it to engagement if they haven’t figured this out. If they haven’t the relationship should have already imploded.

With regard to not living together and adjusting, I think a little bit more talk about the nuts and bolts of that could be helpful (and probably even for the cohabitating). I would toss in some stuff about differing hygiene standards (frequency of haircuts, bathing, etc.), standards of domestic cleanliness (dishes washed nightly or paper plates? bathrooms cleaned weekly or quarterly? bedding changed weekly or quarterly?), reasonable chore division and the importance of re-divvying as life circumstances change, home “zoning” (carving out areas for a slob spouse to let it all hang out), plus finances (where each is, attitudes toward credit and saving, financial goals, the probable effects of having children, etc). That’s a lot of stuff and I don’t think you can do all of it (or even most of it) on-site, but you can definitely start the conversations.

I don’t think we ever talked about housekeeping standards before getting married. As newlyweds, I wanted us to clean roughly quarterly (basically whenever we had company), whereas my husband wanted to clean…pretty much never. Fortunately, we got housecleaning help a few years later.

The financial side of parenthood also deserves a lot of discussion. There is a lot of happy talk (here and elsewhere) with regard to young parenthood. However, I think we owe it to young couples to be real about what it means. So often, there’s a lot of hand-waving–just start your family and everything will be awesome!

Talking about it might help but at least in my case I discovered issues that I didn’t even know could be issues.

WRT finances & parenthood, that may have to remain a “leap of faith” if you will. The last numbers I saw were around $13,000 per year plus college. In theory, if I’m not buying a new car every two years or buying fancy big screen TVs and lavish vacations then I can’t afford children. But as a think about those I’ve seen raise children I’m in as good or even better position.

 

[EasterJoy]

In a way, the practical differences between cohabitation and marriage are treated have been shrinking for some time.

What you describe is risk aversion or mitigation. A failed marriage carries a huge price, and it’s not limited to 75% of one’s material possessions. We have witnessed a number of divorces “break” people for a period of time. As such, there is a real and significant danger to marriage that can not be discounted regardless of the theological permanence.

In a way, marriage in

Not sure if practical but I think the following might help.

1. Explain the advantages of marriage. What benefits are there that outweigh the inherent risks? Joint home ownership, bank accounts, and a host of other things do not require it.
2. Perhaps encourage discussion between millennials and both happily married and divorced couples. Basically, develop skills on wisely choosing a spouse and what to discuss before proposing. Pre-cana is way too late to discuss those topics.
3. Acknowledge the risks and downsides. As a male marriage is the riskiest thing I’ve ever done. There are real adjustments to living together (we didn’t cohabitate before engagement) and a number of downsides. But at times it appears that pro marriage side dismisses in a way that damages credibility.

The social consequences for cohabitation have changed. There used to be a great stigma to it, and now if anything the stigma is suffered by those who let it be known that they remained chaste prior to marriage.

Yes, there was a time when none of the benefits of marriage were available to those who didn’t marry, except those who achieved a “common law” marriage. The benefits of marriage were pointedly denied to the unmarried.

Yes, the possibility of unilateral divorce has also made it impossible to remain married by refusing to consent to a divorce. This enormous unilateral power is a great temptation and the unilateral power of one’s spouse poses a real threat of devastating and unmerited abandonment and loss that both men and women understandably fear.

The true benefits of marriage, however, the reasons that society had for using stigma and legal incentives to encourage couples to marry, however, have not changed. God did not design marriage for arbitrary reasons. It is the foundation of social stability. It is the foundation of child-rearing and therefore the foundation of personal maturation. It is meant to be both for the good of the couple and for the good of all.

Unfortunately, however, a bias in favor of “small picture” decision-making has obliterated the “big picture” reasons that marriage deserves a unique pride of place and unique support among all human relationships. We don’t marry for ourselves only, but these days it is each living for herself or himself only, and the devil take the hindmost.

 

[Xantippe]

The same thing as when you dated? Presumably a couple doesn’t make it to engagement if they haven’t figured this out. If they haven’t the relationship should have already imploded.

Talking about it might help but at least in my case I discovered issues that I didn’t even know could be issues.

WRT finances & parenthood, that may have to remain a “leap of faith” if you will. The last numbers I saw were around $13,000 per year plus college. In theory, if I’m not buying a new car every two years or buying fancy big screen TVs and lavish vacations then I can’t afford children. But as a think about those I’ve seen raise children I’m in as good or even better position.

1. HerCrazierHalf said:

“The same thing as when you dated? Presumably a couple doesn’t make it to engagement if they haven’t figured this out. If they haven’t the relationship should have already imploded.”

I think it probably depends how long you have been dating or how smitten you are by your sweetie. If you’ve been dating five years and cohabitating three, sure.

My husband and I had an express courtship and engagement (met and married within a single grad school year), and we were both very smitten. We really didn’t work through the “selfish and stupid” stuff when dating or engaged.

I don’t think I really got a handle on it until the last year, actually.

1. With regard to not knowing things could be issues, that’s a reason to discuss EVERYTHING.

For instance, in our particular case, it would have been a good question to ask, “How often do you feel the need to bathe?” I’ve only recently gotten my husband to stop giving me a hard time for wanting to bathe daily. (I also had my issues with his more conservative schedule, naturally.)

I think we’ve worked through almost everything satisfactorily, but we had some pretty weird, quirky issues, and it took a long, long time. I feel like it would have been more economical to have the discussions upfront rather than being blindsided years in.

1. I think there’s something to be said for that estimate for extra kid costs (at least in the 1-3 kid range). When my husband and I were newlyweds, we lived on around $24k a year (no car, 1 BR apartment, used mattress from friends, etc.). We have three kids now and we have way more than $24k. So I think that the $13k a year extra per kid isn’t actually as crazy as it sounds.

 

[High_flyer]

The issue for the church where we live at least is relevance in Pre Cana teaching. Our experience of Pre Cana turned my wife off the Church she had identified with for so long.

While we are not millenials it was not that long ago. It was a very amateur attempt and re indoctrination. My Wife was brought up Catholic but has been non practicing for a while now.

Instead of practical useful relationship guidance it was all about church teaching despite all the other couples not being a Catholic marrying a Catholic. As we know now after the survey on the family there is a void between the Church teaching and what the majority of Catholics think and do. The ‘old school’ way of thinking was still presented and this of course did not sit well with us and indeed the other couples. We were all very much there to “tick the boxes”.

It was a lost opportunity for constructive conversation. But we had to listen to old out dated videos and stats on marriage. It was unfortunate that the facilitators were not qualified to take the classes and clearly did not have an understanding of even the religious material!

After completion we were happy as it was all over and we had our wonderful wedding. We have children and my wife had no intention of baptising them and is quite happy to have walked away. Change is indeed needed in order to stay relevant or more and more will walk away.

 

[agapewolf]

The issue for the church where we live at least is relevance in Pre Cana teaching. Our experience of Pre Cana turned my wife off the Church she had identified with for so long.

While we are not millenials it was not that long ago. It was a very amateur attempt and re indoctrination. My Wife was brought up Catholic but has been non practicing for a while now.

Instead of practical useful relationship guidance it was all about church teaching despite all the other couples not being a Catholic marrying a Catholic. As we know now after the survey on the family there is a void between the Church teaching and what the majority of Catholics think and do. The ‘old school’ way of thinking was still presented and this of course did not sit well with us and indeed the other couples. We were all very much there to “tick the boxes”.

It was a lost opportunity for constructive conversation. But we had to listen to old out dated videos and stats on marriage. It was unfortunate that the facilitators were not qualified to take the classes and clearly did not have an understanding of even the religious material!

After completion we were happy as it was all over and we had our wonderful wedding. We have children and my wife had no intention of baptising them and is quite happy to have walked away. Change is indeed needed in order to stay relevant or more and more will walk away.

So, in your opinion, the church should tell people what they want to hear so they’ll stay?

That’s not the way Jesus (nor the church works). (John 6). The church’s job isn’t to give relationship guidance. It IS her job to proclaim the truth… the real teaching of Jesus. That doesn’t change.

 

[High_flyer]

Originally Posted by agapewolf
So, in your opinion, the church should tell people what they want to hear so they’ll stay?

That’s not the way Jesus (nor the church works). (John 6). The church’s job isn’t to give relationship guidance. It IS her job to proclaim the truth… the real teaching of Jesus. That doesn’t change.

This is not what I said at all. The identified gap does need to be addressed. It used to be the case here in NZ that many other Christian denominations would recommend the Catholic Pre Cana classes for their engaged couples. This is no longer done.

Yes, there will always be hard liners who will block any change and updating but the Church has come a long way and in order to remain important it will need to continue. You only have to look at the number of churches in my city closing and merging with others to understand the problem. It is starting with younger people like my wife who are leaving.

 

[Xantippe]

This is not what I said at all. The identified gap does need to be addressed. It used to be the case here in NZ that many other Christian denominations would recommend the Catholic Pre Cana classes for their engaged couples. This is no longer done.

Yes, there will always be hard liners who will block any change and updating but the Church has come a long way and in order to remain important it will need to continue. You only have to look at the number of churches in my city closing and merging with others to understand the problem. It is starting with younger people like my wife who are leaving.

If the Catholic Church is wrong, why do you care?

 

[EasterJoy]

This is not what I said at all. The identified gap does need to be addressed. It used to be the case here in NZ that many other Christian denominations would recommend the Catholic Pre Cana classes for their engaged couples. This is no longer done.

Yes, there will always be hard liners who will block any change and updating but the Church has come a long way and in order to remain important it will need to continue. You only have to look at the number of churches in my city closing and merging with others to understand the problem. It is starting with younger people like my wife who are leaving.

I understand some of what you mean, but you have to see the spot the Church is in. It is no longer possible to assume that Catholics approaching the Church to marry have been catechized concerning the Church’s teachings and what it is that they are taking on. Marriage preparation has to cover a lot of ground that used to be assumed was common knowledge, knowledge commonly accepted to be the truth. Even among Catholics, however, the teachings of the Church are not common knowledge.

You’d like to think marriage preparation could presume basic catechesis and concentrate instead on making certain the couples have properly considered their particular relationship and whether or not they are properly disposed to receive the sacrament and prepared (as much as it is possible) for the trials of marriage. There are unfortunately and unavoidably other fish that need to be fried, too.

You have also put your finger on another problem, however: the need for professionals to guide this process and the practical necessity to use volunteers. Volunteers can be the best and most selfless instructors possible, but other times you get what you pay for. Sometimes, you pay nothing in money but have to endure someone else’s private gospel-according-to-Jane-and-Joe-Catholic. The truth is that most couples can’t afford to pay for what these days call for. Even if they could, there is a limit to the expense the Church can attach to preparing for the sacraments.

You’re not going to get much sympathy here on one count, though. No one here at Catholic Answers is going to give other Catholics a pass on knowing *and fully intending to live *the faith as the Church teaches it. Once someone has approached the Church for the sacrament of marriage, it is by no means “indoctrination” to go over all the relevant Church teachings with regard to marriage and to expect that all who want to be married in the Church will accept those truths as truths and not as guidelines. That is required in order to make certain the couple is properly disposed for the sacrament.

Someone who resents hearing the teachings of the Church prior to the marriage already has one foot out the door. Enlarging the building to include property foreign to the thinking of the Church is not an acceptable solution to that. But yes: There are better and worse ways to approach that increasingly common problem. “This way or the highway” presentations are not one of the better ways, let’s just say that.

 

[white_sheep]

If they don’t agree with Church teaching about sex, contraception, and the marriage debt, then they shouldn’t be getting married. That isn’t a rigorist approach, just the standard Catholic approach.

 

[TheSurvivor]

If they don’t agree with Church teaching about sex, contraception, and the marriage debt, then they shouldn’t be getting married. That isn’t a rigorist approach, just the standard Catholic approach.

Agreed.