Presbyterian Church (USA)

[JRRTFAN]

The PC - USA has approved same sex “marriage” thus reducing another mainline Protestant communion to ignominious nothingness. This has been coming on for years. I had contact with one of their clergy who left PC - USA for something called Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I asked him why he had remained there so long in view of their position on abortion. He said he had hoped to change them. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” - G.K. Chesterton

 

[Memaw]

The PC - USA has approved same sex “marriage” thus reducing another mainline Protestant communion to ignominious nothingness. This has been coming on for years. I had contact with one of their clergy who left PC - USA for something called Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I asked him why he had remained there so long in view of their position on abortion. He said he had hoped to change them. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” - G.K. Chesterton

Chesterton was right, and that is the Catholic Church. When will we ever learn !! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Origen52]

The sad reality is that despite sanctioning all the popular trends of the day, these are not the Protestant denominations increasing in numbers. People are going towards the evangelical churches. when people opine that church attendance would improve if the church was more socially liberal, I point to the Anglican church in England. They have approved everything, including openly gay priests, women priests and now women bishops, but their churches are still empty.

One of the sad things about traveling through England is seeing the number of churches which are now cafes, private homes, etc.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Already being discussed here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=951688

 

[Aslan10]

…I point to the Anglican church in England. They have approved everything, including openly gay priests, women priests and now women bishops, but their churches are still empty.

One of the sad things about traveling through England is seeing the number of churches which are now cafes, private homes, etc.

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

Not to mention the number of Catholic parishes that are functionally mainline liberal, esp. in the eastern part of the US.

 

[commenter]

Originally Posted by Aslan10 View Post
I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty

Not to mention the number of Catholic parishes that are functionally mainline liberal, esp. in the eastern part of the US.

The Catholic Church (individual Catholics) is not exempt from the World, the Flesh and the Devil. We sometimes give good advice, sometimes not. We sometimes are saints, sometimes not. As individuals and as groups we sometimes suffer the effects of worldliness, one of which is extreme liberalness, leading to closed churches, empty religious orders, etc.

The Catholic Church (Magisterium)** is** reliable. It is not subservient to the secular culture. The validity of the Church’s counsel is not affected by what percentage of people or what percentage of Catholics follow it. The Church is always holy; that holiness is not affected by how many Catholics avail themselves of it in their lives. (What happens to individuals is very important for their own sake).

The Magisterium is like a lighthouse. It’s helpful only to those who choose to be guided by it. It’s reliability for you is not reduced if most other people are ignoring it. Actually the Magisterium is a lighthouse even for non Catholic Christians, who at least take it into account, as a “fixed position”, a way of measuring the boundaries of “orthodoxy”. It’s like a yardstick that doesn’t shrink or expand in different weather. In the near future people flock to the flexible yardsticks, that tell them exactly what they want to hear. In the long run, they abandon those flexible yardsticks as worthless.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The Catholic Church (individual Catholics) is not exempt from the World, the Flesh and the Devil. We sometimes give good advice, sometimes not. We sometimes are saints, sometimes not. As individuals and as groups we sometimes suffer the effects of worldliness, one of which is extreme liberalness, leading to closed churches, empty religious orders, etc.

Yes, absolutely. That was my point. Before we criticize mainline Protestants for their liberalism, we also need to remember that individual Catholics and Orthodox, whether priests or laity, are subject to the same human condition as the Protestant churches.

 

[Origen52]

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

I have spent a lot of time in Italy and the churches may not be packed, but there are more people attending services than in England.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, absolutely. That was my point. Before we criticize mainline Protestants for their liberalism, we also need to remember that individual Catholics and Orthodox, whether priests or laity, are subject to the same human condition as the Protestant churches.

The important distinction here, however, is that regardless of the liberal positions of some Catholics and even priests, their positions are not condoned by the Catholic Church, whereas in this specific case, it is the official policy of the Presbyterian Church. Major difference here.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The important distinction here, however, is that regardless of the liberal positions of some Catholics and even priests, their positions are not condoned by the Catholic Church, whereas in this specific case, it is the official policy of the Presbyterian Church. Major difference here.

That’s true. The problem is, unfortunately, when the magisterium of the respective body doesn’t deal with the liberal positions of parishes directly (by that, I mean the ordinary bishops, not the Vatican, or the Patriarchs).

 

[Zachary]

The PC - USA has approved same sex “marriage” thus reducing another mainline Protestant communion to ignominious nothingness. This has been coming on for years. I had contact with one of their clergy who left PC - USA for something called Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I asked him why he had remained there so long in view of their position on abortion. He said he had hoped to change them. Yeah, that’s a good idea.

“We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong.” - G.K. Chesterton

Hold on! Didn’t Jesus say that “If thou dost not liketh God’s will, bring the matter to the next spaghetti supper and put it to a vote, for the people of God decideth truth and the truth is ever changing.” I think it was in his Letter to the Pastafarians, 2:69.

 

[Aslan10]

I have spent a lot of time in Italy and the churches may not be packed, but there are more people attending services than in England.

Again, I think this a very surface level analysis. Go to Germany, France, etc…They all have a large amount Catholic churches and all are just as empty as the churches in England. You referenced the country that is the spiritual home of the Catholic faith.

The lack of attendance in the Church of England has more to do with the culture of the nation than the church. The CoE has large attendances in many parts of the world just as the CC does in many parts.

 

[Zachary]

Again, I think this a very surface level analysis. Go to Germany, France, etc…They all have a large amount Catholic churches and all are just as empty as the churches in England. You referenced the country that is the spiritual home of the Catholic faith.

The lack of attendance in the Church of England has more to do with the culture of the nation than the church. The CoE has large attendances in many parts of the world just as the CC does in many parts.

What does this have to do with the PC of USA deciding it is above God’s will?

I think it was fair to say that it’s no wonder that many christian churches/denominations come and go with the times because are trying to be of the times and not of God.

The Catholic church and it’s (debatable) attendance issues have nothing to so with popular vote.

 

[SteveVH]

That’s true. The problem is, unfortunately, when the magisterium of the respective body doesn’t deal with the liberal positions of parishes directly (by that, I mean the ordinary bishops, not the Vatican, or the Patriarchs).

Totally agree!

 

[Novocastrian]

I’m not sure that is a very good analysis, considering the Catholic Churches in Europe are also empty.

In some ways the Catholic Churches come off rather worse. If you compare the number of men ordained every year in the CofE to those by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the country, the difference is astounding.

 

[wmscott]

What does this have to do with the PC of USA deciding it is above God’s will?

I think it was fair to say that it’s no wonder that many christian churches/denominations come and go with the times because are trying to be of the times and not of God.

The Catholic church and it’s (debatable) attendance issues have nothing to so with popular vote.

It’s called smoke and mirrors to divert from the subject at hand. :juggle:

 

[Aslan10]

It’s called smoke and mirrors to divert from the subject at hand. :juggle:

Would you like to expand on what is behind the smoke then? I am merely commenting that it is a cultural issue, not a church issue. It’s no mystery that attendance in every christian church is decreasing rapidly across the western world, which suggests it’s not about Catholic v Protestant.

 

[Aslan10]

What does this have to do with the PC of USA deciding it is above God’s will?

I think it was fair to say that it’s no wonder that many christian churches/denominations come and go with the times because are trying to be of the times and not of God.

The Catholic church and it’s (debatable) attendance issues have nothing to so with popular vote.

To your first question, it doesn’t. Now, if you’re going to ask me that, then ask the previous poster if their statement on the CoE has anything to do with the PC of USA?

However, I do object to the idea that it is churches trying to “keep up with times” that causes lower attendance. Keeping up with the times is to automatically recognize a problem and that problem is, people in the western world are becoming disenfranchised with the faith as a whole; not just some protestant churches, the problem is not discriminatory.

My argument, is its a cultural problem and these Churches are giving in to a culture, so as to bring its members back.

I’m not really sure the attendance issues within the CC are debatable either. The facts show this across the whole of Europe. With that said, might I add, that I am not siding with liberal Church leaders, nor I am trying to condemn the CC. I do not want to be misunderstood, because that can happen sometimes. I firmly respect the CC and commend it for all its wonderful acts of mercy in the world, throughout time. I just don’t think this is a “Protestant Problem.” Hope I have been clear.

 

[wmscott]

Would you like to expand on what is behind the smoke then? I am merely commenting that it is a cultural issue, not a church issue. It’s no mystery that attendance in every christian church is decreasing rapidly across the western world, which suggests it’s not about Catholic v Protestant.

It is entirly possible that I may have misunderstood the intent of your post. To me the subject "The PC - USA has approved same sex “marriage”, should focus on that. a lot of times others will put forth other scenarios to move away from the subject at hand.