President Obama to receive honorary degree from Notre Dame

[Ronald_E]

You certainly won’t hear them say “kill me so I don’t have to be brought into a dangerous world”.

Sarcasm.

 

[mapleoak]

We cannot pursue strictly legal means in our fight against abortion.

Exactly! That is why we need to also elect Pro-Life politicians rather than pro-death pro-abortion ones like our current leader.
It doesn’t end when the elections are over.

 

[Ronald_E]

Exactly! That is why we need to also elect Pro-Life politicians rather than pro-death pro-abortion ones like our current leader.
It doesn’t end when the elections are over.

What is the definition of pro-life?

 

[mapleoak]

I would like to ask anyone here some questions. They aren’t easy, and thus I don’t expect anyone to answer them, but I’ll ask anyway. How should abortion be made illegal?

The same as all other forms of murder are made illegal.

How should girls be punished if they’re discovered?

Through trial. Innocent until proven guilty is the system in use in the U.S.

Should new prisons be built to house them?

Abortion doesn’t need to be singled out here. By using this type of reasoning, we can easily free up lots of prison space by changing things which are illegal and make them legal.

 

[mapleoak]

Sarcasm.

Did you not define the world as too dangerous a place for someone to live in?

“help my mother bring into a safe world.” The unborn need a mother who is safe and loved.

Safe from what?

Your view of what I have said is so twisted. You cannot protect the unborn if you do not protect those who carry them.

Protect them from what? Are they in as much danger of being murdered as their babies are? So much so that we need to vote for pro-abortion politicians to help stomp out these babies so we can work on other issues?

 

[mapleoak]

What is the definition of pro-life?

For the purposes of this thread, it means upholding the sanctity of human life from conception to natural death. It means not condoning, approving, or supporting the senseless slaughter of the innocent unborn.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

The same as all other forms of murder are made illegal.

Through trial. Innocent until proven guilty is the system in use in the U.S.
Abortion doesn’t need to be singled out here. By using this type of reasoning, we can easily free up lots of prison space by changing things which are illegal and make them legal.

I didn’t expect anyone to really answer those questions and indeed you haven’t. You have implied two points without explicitly stating them though, and so I’ll mention them. First, you believe abortion should be tried as murder, and second, you believe there should be a trial by jury.

In a trial by jury, an individual is tried by a jury of her peers. At least 75% of Americans don’t believe abortion should be equivalent to murder, so this would seem to indicate it would be very difficult to get a jury conviction, not to mention the consensus of people necessary to get these laws passed. And trust me, your arguments aren’t convincing enough to get a consensus.

If abortion is murder, does that mean that causing stress to a pregnant woman is manslaughter, if it causes her to miscarry? What if she didn’t know she was pregnant? What if she didn’t quit her job, and the work stress caused her to miscarry? What about using the morning-after pill? It doesn’t allow an embryo to implant, though it doesn’t cause an abortion. But it only leads to the death of an embryo if one exists, and that’s impossible to determine.

Changing the laws as such would lead to a ridiculous number of similar questions and logic-defying scenarios. Even in Chile, abortion is roughly the equivalent of a misdemeanor, and legally equating it to murder would be impossible.

One last question: If it is so imperative to do everything you can to prevent abortion, then why aren’t you knocking down abortion clinics? Surely, the number of lives you would save while the building is unusable would be worth any criminal charges.

 

[elts1956]

How do you know that 54% of Catholics lost their moral compass or that their consciences were not well-formed?
For example, women bring life into the world. What happens to women when they live in a world of suffering, disease, war, torture and they are targets for the vast majority of violence and have no power to stop what males have created?
All of the above represent the obvious examples of the culture of death. As long as those are not addressed and resolved it will be unsafe for women to bring their children into the world. 15,000,000 children die each year before they reach the age of 5. That is the culture of death.
Those who support Obama coming to Notre Dame have a well-formed conscience because they know that communication about the common good is the beginning of healing suffering and creating an environment where it is safe for women to bring children into the world.

I think you are operating on the false premise that poverty leads to abortion. I don’t think this is the case.

I think you have a point there. My Gma and Gpa had thirteen children. They raised all but two who died as children. I could show you a picture of what many call poverty. I could also show you the many smiling faces of the eleven children who lived. They lived in a different time when raising and loving children was more important than fearing you wouldn’t be able to do so and then trying to ease your material fear through killing them.

My Aunt and Uncle had fifteen children, all raised to adulthood. They didn’t consider themselves impoverished, but rich in the love and closeness of their family. They also lived in a different time when fear of survival wasn’t the greatest concern they had.

I question the authenticity of our government which says they " care" for the impoverished and poor. If this is so, why don’t we have Government programs that support bringing children into the world by supplying more of their fundamental needs, such as housing, clothing, and food? Ours is a government which has almost unlimited funds (at least through borrowing from China) and where do our tax dollars go? To abortion mills, to Planned Parenthood to help them teach our young people that life can always be stopped if it is inconvenient.

The Catholic Church. being the largest christian group, have and are trying their best to help those who are in despair. Why must it be left up to a religious organization to help people?

We were once a “Christian” nation. What happened?

 

[Luis_Santiago]

I question the authenticity of our government which says they " care" for the impoverished and poor. If this is so, why don’t we have Government programs that support bringing children into the world by supplying more of their fundamental needs, such as housing, clothing, and food?

Oh, you mean like WIC, food stamps, Medicaid, unemployment, and SCHIP? I guess because Republicans consistently vote against them?

Ours is a government which has almost unlimited funds (at least through borrowing from China) and where do our tax dollars go? To abortion mills, to Planned Parenthood to help them teach our young people that life can always be stopped if it is inconvenient.

Almost half of the federal budget goes toward Medicare and Medicaid, which provide health care to the poor and elderly. Billions more go toward other federal programs for the poor. And the Hyde amendment ensures none of this pays for abortions. States are able to fund abortions on their own, but most don’t.

We were once a “Christian” nation. What happened?

Before Europe was Christian, they were pagan. They became Christian, because Christianity was much more relevant to their lives, and provided answers to questions that paganism didn’t. Religion is becoming less relevant to people’s lives. The constant focus on issues like abortion and gay marriage drives people away. Abortion doesn’t affect most people’s lives, and neither does gay marriage. You’re probably thinking “tough beans, these issues are really important and ALL true Christians need to focus primarily on these issues!” Well, many Christians can’t accept that, and leave. You might be thinking this is blasphemy, but consider this: throughout the history of the Church, it was always a vehicle for making visible improvements to society. This isn’t so much the case anymore.

 

[elts1956]

Oh, you mean like WIC, food stamps, Medicaid, unemployment, and SCHIP? I guess because Republicans consistently vote against them?

Almost half of the federal budget goes toward Medicare and Medicaid, which provide health care to the poor and elderly. Billions more go toward other federal programs for the poor. And the Hyde amendment ensures none of this pays for abortions. States are able to fund abortions on their own, but most don’t.

Before Europe was Christian, they were pagan. They became Christian, because Christianity was much more relevant to their lives, and provided answers to questions that paganism didn’t. Religion is becoming less relevant to people’s lives. The constant focus on issues like abortion and gay marriage drives people away. Abortion doesn’t affect most people’s lives, and neither does gay marriage. You’re probably thinking “tough beans, these issues are really important and ALL true Christians need to focus primarily on these issues!” Well, many Christians can’t accept that, and leave. You might be thinking this is blasphemy, but consider this: throughout the history of the Church, it was always a vehicle for making visible improvements to society. This isn’t so much the case anymore.

:bowdown::bowdown: BUT I didn’t say we should not focus at all on other issues. BUT one should take into consideration the issues that are presently of the greatest concern. After all, when one’s house is on fire, one doesn’t think first about the furniture, but getting the children out.

 

[catharina]

St. Jerome proves that this view was not unprecedented before the 19th century, and I admit I was wrong on this one count, although his views are not necessarily identical to those of the Church at the time. But I never once said abortion is not wrong. That is only what you think I said. I also never said that abortion is never murder. Clearly a child in the ninth month of pregnancy is as much a person as you or I. But I cannot in my mind ascribe full personhood to an embryo that cannot move, think, or feel pain. In this early stage, it can split in half and form two full human beings, which is where identical twins come from. For all your talk of new scientific knowledge, the science indicates that at this early stage, the blastula is not a full person. If it were to divide, it would form two people, if it were to fuse with another blastula, they would together form one. It can even get absorbed into the mother’s body and the cells can take on new roles within her. The science indicates that something this malleable is not fully a person, since the number of people that it is has not even been established yet.

You seem to be displaying more hatred, anger, and fear than love and compassion, not only toward the girls I was describing, but toward me. You are angry that views like mine exist within the Church, and fearful that these views will corrupt it. You’ve directed your hatred toward people like Obama, who don’t really deserve it to the extent that they’re receiving it. But the Church has changed over the millennia, and I am confident that it will continue to change. Some people are still upset over the changes of Vatican II, and think it has corrupted the Church, but this is hardly the case. I still follow the Church’s teachings, even though I disagree with some of them. Maybe the Church will change some of their teachings. Maybe not.

Amazing that you imagine you support Catholic teaching regarding conception.
You have grabbed a platform here and now to deride and ridicule Church teaching.
You clearly have a different view of ‘following’ Church teaching.

Regarding my attitude toward you and your blatant errors, I’ll say that you are quite mistaken if you think I am hateful of, angered at or fearful of you. Rather I hold you in great pity and I fear ONLY for your immortal soul. No, you won’t corrupt the Church. The Catholic Church, founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ is incorruptible and will stand with the Truth it embraces despite any onslaughts from hell or from Luis Santiago. I can only hope that you’re using a pseudonymn so that other Santiagos will not be shamed by your false teaching. The Church teaches that life begins at conception.

The flourishing fantasy life and expectations of one Luis Santiago will not change that.

If you vary from the teaching that the newly conceived are persons, then you are in greivous error and in total disagreement with the Church. Ditto for any false leaders who have led you to such thinking.

As to what an embryo can DO, it can EXIST and GROW -
quite worthless activities according to you in regard to embryos.
That’s absolutely pathetic and a total rejection of the holiness of new life.

PS -
Luis, you insist that “… I cannot in my mind ascribe full personhood to an embryo that cannot move, think, or feel pain.” In declaring this, you are declaring absolute oppostion to the teaching of the Church.

 

[mapleoak]

In a trial by jury, an individual is tried by a jury of her peers. At least 75% of Americans don’t believe abortion should be equivalent to murder, so this would seem to indicate it would be very difficult to get a jury conviction, not to mention the consensus of people necessary to get these laws passed. And trust me, your arguments aren’t convincing enough to get a consensus.

You honestly believe if someone is accused of having an abortion, it would be difficult for a jury to convict someone of abortion?

If abortion is murder, does that mean that causing stress to a pregnant woman is manslaughter, if it causes her to miscarry?

Yes.

What if she didn’t know she was pregnant? What if she didn’t quit her job, and the work stress caused her to miscarry? What about using the morning-after pill? It doesn’t allow an embryo to implant, though it doesn’t cause an abortion. But it only leads to the death of an embryo if one exists, and that’s impossible to determine.

What if a doctor is arrested for performing an abortion. He will likely lose his license and be prosecuted for murder. That is the intent of outlawing abortion. No need to make things more complicated than they are.

 

[mapleoak]

One last question: If it is so imperative to do everything you can to prevent abortion, then why aren’t you knocking down abortion clinics?

Because we don’t need to use evil means in this or any other situation. I must say you are certainly intent on drawing attention away from the immorality of supporting pro-abortion candidates.

 

[magdelaine]

Amazing that you imagine you support Catholic teaching regarding conception.
You have grabbed a platform here and now to deride and ridicule Church teaching.
You clearly have a different view of ‘following’ Church teaching.

Regarding my attitude toward you and your blatant errors, I’ll say that you are quite mistaken if you think I am hateful of, angered at or fearful of you. Rather I hold you in great pity and I fear ONLY for your immortal soul. No, you won’t corrupt the Church. The Catholic Church, founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ is incorruptible and will stand with the Truth it embraces despite any onslaughts from hell or from Luis Santiago. I can only hope that you’re using a pseudonymn so that other Santiagos will not be shamed by your false teaching. The Church teaches that life begins at conception.

The flourishing fantasy life and expectations of one Luis Santiago will not change that.

If you vary from the teaching that the newly conceived are persons, then you are in greivous error and in total disagreement with the Church. Ditto for any false leaders who have led you to such thinking.

As to what an embryo can DO, it can EXIST and GROW -
quite worthless activities according to you in regard to embryos.
That’s absolutely pathetic and a total rejection of the holiness of new life.

:nunchuk:

 

[mapleoak]

Luis, you insist that “… I cannot in my mind ascribe full personhood to an embryo that cannot move, think, or feel pain.” In declaring this, you are declaring absolute oppostion to the teaching of the Church.

In his own words:

I think the Church is wrong on this issue, and I’m not the only one who thinks so. It wouldn’t be the first time the Church has been wrong.

 

[Ronald_E]

:bowdown::bowdown: BUT I didn’t say we should not focus at all on other issues. BUT one should take into consideration the issues that are presently of the greatest concern. After all, when one’s house is on fire, one doesn’t think first about the furniture, but getting the children out.

If you do not take care of the causes of abortion, you will not prevent abortion. The examples you used are not relevant now. They were, however, the norm when I was growing up and I believe those values were lost for the majority.
We now have a world where competition and survival of the fittest are the values. Social programs that support women and mothers are the first step towards stopping abortion.

Mother Theresa once received a large donation of money from a man. She told him that it must have hurt to give that much. When he told her it did not hurt at all, she refused his donation.

Luis made an excellent point when he asked what are we willing to do to stop abortion.
The award being presented to President Obama is meaningless. What is more meaningful is opening a dialogue that educates him on a deepening understanding of when life starts. You cannot reach the guy when you scream at him. You must approach his value system that supports women.

The Art of War states that the best way to defeat an enemy is to make him believe you are his friend. However, the president is not the enemy. Ignorance is the enemy.

 

[Nino]

Its welcome news to see such a grassroots outrage over this invite…now tho,that it is receiving so much publicity the powers that be at the former ‘Catholic’ university will play victim…yes victim…they will soon bleat I mean state."it is those who are distorting this invitation to the first black US president that are harming this great university! They are the ones,they they they!!! ‘they’ are so full of hate,the emails we have been receiving…shocking…etc etc…lets wait and see the counter attack…while enemies of true quest for knowledge and truth sit back and smirk at their invite ‘doctrinal dissent leads to intellectual self-deception-which leads to behavorial self-deception’…yeh basaball season is here.and the hotdawgs are only $10.00 each this year…

 

[Ronald_E]

Its welcome news to see such a grassroots outrage over this invite…now tho,that it is receiving so much publicity the powers that be at the former ‘Catholic’ university will play victim…yes victim…they will soon bleat I mean state."it is those who are distorting this invitation to the first black US president that are harming this great university! They are the ones,they they they!!! ‘they’ are so full of hate,the emails we have been receiving…shocking…etc etc…lets wait and see the counter attack…while enemies of true quest for knowledge and truth sit back and smirk at their invite ‘doctrinal dissent leads to intellectual self-deception-which leads to behavorial self-deception’…yeh basaball season is here.and the hotdawgs are only $10.00 each this year…

It’s outrageous that there is outrage. However, if they who are outraged use their intelligence instead of their feelings they might create something that benefits our faith and the children we want to save.
The easy response is outrage. The more difficult response is to trust and thank God for the opportunity to engage with the president that so many oppose.

 

[Luis_Santiago]

You honestly believe if someone is accused of having an abortion, it would be difficult for a jury to convict someone of abortion?

If murder and abortion were equivalent, it would be a murder conviction.

Yes.

When my parents were first married, my grandmother disapproved of my father. She caused my mother a lot of stress, and my mother miscarried. My grandmother is a faithful Catholic. She goes to Mass several times a week and participates in all of the church activities. But she would have served years in prison if you had your way. For what? Arguing with my mom? Would every woman have to report being pregnant, so social services could monitor it? What if she didn’t know? Would miscarriages have to be reported, as infant deaths are? Would there be an investigation into every miscarriage, which are frequent and spontaneous more often than not?

What if a doctor is arrested for performing an abortion. He will likely lose his license and be prosecuted for murder. That is the intent of outlawing abortion. No need to make things more complicated than they are.

In Chile, most of the doctors that perform abortions are in private hospitals and don’t get investigated. Poor women are more likely to try to do it themselves, or go to someone who isn’t a doctor. Doctors aren’t dumb, they know what they can get away with. Few doctors would be arrested.

Amazing that you imagine you support Catholic teaching regarding conception.
You have grabbed a platform here and now to deride and ridicule Church teaching.
You clearly have a different view of ‘following’ Church teaching.

By following, I mean I will not suggest that anyone get an abortion. If someone in my life were considering it, I would do everything I could to prevent her from doing it.

Regarding my attitude toward you and your blatant errors, I’ll say that you are quite mistaken if you think I am hateful of, angered at or fearful of you. Rather I hold you in great pity and I fear ONLY for your immortal soul. No, you won’t corrupt the Church. The Catholic Church, founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ is incorruptible and will stand with the Truth it embraces despite any onslaughts from hell or from Luis Santiago. I can only hope that you’re using a pseudonymn so that other Santiagos will not be shamed by your false teaching. The Church teaches that life begins at conception.

“Santiago” is Spanish for “Saint James”, and I hardly expect this conversation to spread beyond this forum. And you certainly are angry at me, so I’m not sure why you would say you aren’t. But as you say, the Church is incorruptible, and nothing I can do will change it, so what is upsetting you so much?

The flourishing fantasy life and expectations of one Luis Santiago will not change that.

If you vary from the teaching that the newly conceived are persons, then you are in greivous error and in total disagreement with the Church. Ditto for any false leaders who have led you to such thinking.

As to what an embryo can DO, it can EXIST and GROW -
quite worthless activities according to you in regard to embryos.
That’s absolutely pathetic and a total rejection of the holiness of new life.

PS -
Luis, you insist that “… I cannot in my mind ascribe full personhood to an embryo that cannot move, think, or feel pain.” In declaring this, you are declaring absolute oppostion to the teaching of the Church.

I already showed that Church teaching has changed with regard to a person receives a soul. This change happened due to the advancement of scientific knowledge. Then, I showed how at the very early stages of embryonic development, the blastulae can naturally split and recombine to form a number of different people. This would indicate that a blastula is not a person with a soul; in fact it hasn’t even been established how many people it will be yet. My point is that the Church has not changed yet with respect to this scientific understanding, and I believe it should.

 

[mapleoak]

If you do not take care of the causes of abortion, you will not prevent abortion. The examples you used are not relevant now. They were, however, the norm when I was growing up and I believe those values were lost for the majority.
We now have a world where competition and survival of the fittest are the values. Social programs that support women and mothers are the first step towards stopping abortion.

Mother Theresa once received a large donation of money from a man. She told him that it must have hurt to give that much. When he told her it did not hurt at all, she refused his donation.

Luis made an excellent point when he asked what are we willing to do to stop abortion.
The award being presented to President Obama is meaningless. What is more meaningful is opening a dialogue that educates him on a deepening understanding of when life starts. You cannot reach the guy when you scream at him. You must approach his value system that supports women.

The Art of War states that the best way to defeat an enemy is to make him believe you are his friend. However, the president is not the enemy. Ignorance is the enemy.

How does voting for and supporting and honoring (ad nauseam) a pro-abortion politician whose modus operandi is to increase abortion (all the way to preemting state law with federal power) including abortion of children after they are born till who knows what age in any help to fight and end abortion? Our current president certainly is our enemy and the unborns’ enemy. The Art of War states that we do not elect and put into power our enemy and then try justify our motives and rationalize why it was good that we put him there.