D
diggerdomer
Guest
See message 190
- Status
A
aicirt
Guest
Apparently, not all Presidents spoke at ND’s commencements for the last 60 years. It may be a nice tradition but the mission statement of a Catholic institution must take place over an invite to a party.
40,000,000 babies have been aborted in this country over the last 40 years. Nothing else compares. During those years, the Catholic Church has been the primary leader in fighting against abortions and the culture of death in this country. I’ve had issues with the Church, but I’m extremely proud of its stance. I thought priests would have been united against these policies. Apparently, they are not.
M
magdelaine
Guest
I’m a Catholic. I believe that the Catholic Church is Christ’s body on Earth. I believe that the Holy Spirit allows us to know the will of God through the teachings of the magisterium. Church teaching on the issue of abortion is incredibly clear; so clear that it is beyond me that there are those of us out there that argue the issue.
I do pray in my thoughts, words, and actions that I conform myself to Christ. I know I often fail miserably. I will pray for you, as well.
J
JimG
Guest
It would seem that many are trying to provide cover for pro-abortion votes and for pro-abortion politicians, and for a pro-abortion president. It’s rather hard to justify the unjustifiable.
L
Luis_Santiago
Guest
Becoming the first African-American president is quite an accomplishment. This probably has something to do with it. After all, the fact that he was elected is a testament to our progress against racism, something the Catholic Church has always been strongly against.
You seem to have missed the point. Abortion is wrong. Abortion was never considered to be ok in the eyes of the Church. Abortion is a sin. Abortion is bad. However, abortion was considered to be a lesser sin than say, extramarital sex, until relatively recently. My point was that the history of the Church does not suggest that other evils are insignificant compared to abortion.
Those arguments were something along the lines of, blacks are less intelligent than whites. But that’s irrelevant. If a person is less intelligent than you, that doesn’t mean he’s not a person, or that you have the right to enslave him. And that doesn’t mean science is always right either; biased or politically-motived science was and still is a problem.
You are right. Human life does begin at conception. Science supports this. However, the question is not when life begins, but when ensoulment occurs. Sperm and egg are alive, yet have no souls. A person after brain death has no soul, though their body may be alive.
I thought you said abortion was murder regardless of when it takes place? I was stating facts, but they were in regard to whether abortion was legal in those countries, not what week it could occur. And besides, I thought there currently was a partial-birth abortion ban in the US?Here’s a story from Italy (from a pro-abort site no less) that says Italy only allows abortions to 24 weeks. Last I checked, there* was a difference* between 24 weeks and 40 weeks. Well at least to the child there is a difference… Please get your facts straight.
L
Luis_Santiago
Guest
I constantly look to the Church for guidance when making decisions. Still, Church teaching has changed over the centuries, in response to theologians, culture, science, and secular philosophy. Debating these issues can only strengthen the Church, and may indeed change it in the future. But I am not debating whether abortion is wrong. It clearly is.
I appreciate that. I pray that I am following the right path, and that the truth is revealed to all of us.
I’m not justifying abortion, any more than you would justify preemptively going to war with Iraq. Unless you would. Would you?
M
magdelaine
Guest
You said:
The US is one of only 3 countries in the world who permit abortions up to the 40th week of pregnancy. This is one of the clinics that perform such abortions. There are other, less gruesome ways of accomplishing this task than PBA, but they are also more dangerous, which is why it’s favored. What’s the difference really? The baby is still murdered, whether it happens inside or outside the mother. In any case, other countries are NOT pretty much the same as the US with respect to abortion law.
You may still be unclear about when ensoulment happens, but Church teaching is not.
J
JimG
Guest
Indeed, the U.S. is one of the most abortion friendly countries. In Kansas the abortionist whose link you provided does late term abortions. Of course, KS law requires him to get a second opinion as to its necessity. He gets the second opinion from another abortionist.
M
mapleoak
Guest
But the vatican does. Note that the USCCB only provides additional “enlightenment” on applying the directives already set forth by the Holy Sea. Specifically the following doctrinal note in which the Church spells out nine broad and categories of principles which all Catholics are called to uphold as “the essence of the moral law” and hold as non-negotiable under pain of mortal sin. It calls them “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation”.
Here is a direct quote from that document:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html
which is then followed by the nine broad principles that all Catholics are called to uphold.
I have posted the above USCCB link many, many, many, times. Can you illustrate how the USCCB
contradicts the very clear teaching of the Holy Sea in that it is permissible for a Catholic to support a pro-abortion candidate?
C
catharina
Guest
Oh my goodneess. You weren’t talking to ME?
So I should ignore the way you and a few others have hijacked this thread?
Ahhhhh, no.
You’ve posted fewer than 30 times. I’ve posted nearly 5000 times.
The nature of this site is that people can address whatever they choose.
You’ve chosen to address political freedom in voting.
This thread is meant to address the evil lunacy of Obama receiving an HONOR from ND.
As the bishops said:
“The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions.”
Or do the words of the bishops only guide you according to your personal preferences?
Obama with a 100% pro-abortion stance, is being honored by a CATHOLIC university.
Why would you imagine that ND has made it clear to Obama that ND rejects his stance?
ND has made that clear to NO ONE, not the public, not Obama.
ND has said ‘come, address our graduates and pick up your honorary degree.’
That explains everything?
NOT.
I’m very sorry that anyone has been willing to engage you on ANY issue
other than the issue named by this thread, i.e., Obama’s honorary degree.
One more time,
as the bishops said:
“The Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would SUGGEST support for their actions.”
L
Luis_Santiago
Guest
Ok, I thought partial-birth abortions were the same thing as late-term abortions. I now see the distinction. Still, isn’t the legality different from state to state? Anyway, my reference said whether abortions were legal, not how many weeks into pregnancy they can occur, and that’s what I was referring to.
So when does ensoulment happen for identical twins? What about people who are genetic mosaics? (ie, product of two fused zygotes) I never did figure that one out.
Anyway, my point is that it is unrealistic to expect the state to accept Catholic moral theology as a basis for deciding when ensoulment occurs. Even the Church itself hasn’t always been sure.
K
KestrelRose
Guest
I simply do not understand why the Rev. John Jenkins brought this fight to Notre Dame.
He must of known the pain it was going to bring to so many people.
Did he do this simply to make a point about the direction the university should go?
Did he do this to become a household word and a footnote in the pages of Notre Dame history?
I think that this move is more than just the debate about abortion, as evil as that is, it is more about who should have the authority, power and control over the university and the Church as a whole.
It sure seems to me to be a line drawn in the sand. Does the Catholic Church accept the authority of the Pope or not? It will soon become a decision we will all have to make.
He must of known the pain it was going to bring to so many people.
Did he do this simply to make a point about the direction the university should go?
Did he do this to become a household word and a footnote in the pages of Notre Dame history?
I think that this move is more than just the debate about abortion, as evil as that is, it is more about who should have the authority, power and control over the university and the Church as a whole.
It sure seems to me to be a line drawn in the sand. Does the Catholic Church accept the authority of the Pope or not? It will soon become a decision we will all have to make.
M
magdelaine
Guest
Heh, it doesn’t matter a whit that the state accept ensoulment, in fact you don’t have to believe in “soul” at all. It’s only important that the state accept and acknowledge that a person’s a person no matter how small (from the moment of conception). (I allowed you to distract on that point.)
Catharina’s right. Soooo, what do you think of Obama being invited by ND?
M
mapleoak
Guest
Does the law currently deliberate over the existence of a murder victim’s soul?
M
mapleoak
Guest
In fact, the subject of the victim’s soul never even comes up during the prosecution of a murderer.
E
elts1956
Guest
Honoring someone implies, suggests, hints at SUPPORT for the person. A person is as a person does. Forest Gump?
A
aicirt
Guest
According to EWTN’s news tonight, ND has received 235,000 e-mails against OB speaking at ND.
19 Bishops have said they will have nothing to do with ND.
A new dean of ND Law School has been appointed who was a contributor to OB’s recent campaign.
The actions of ND were reported to be a blow to leadership.
Rev. Father Cleary does not have power over Father Jenkins. Cleary is over him only in regard to priestly matters.
19 Bishops have said they will have nothing to do with ND.
A new dean of ND Law School has been appointed who was a contributor to OB’s recent campaign.
The actions of ND were reported to be a blow to leadership.
Rev. Father Cleary does not have power over Father Jenkins. Cleary is over him only in regard to priestly matters.
L
Luis_Santiago
Guest
You responded twice as though I were addressing you. I was not.
I read some articles written by various pro-life clergy stating that they did not support Obama’s stance on abortion, but nonetheless concluded that it was acceptable for Obama to give the commencement address. They understand the bishops at least as well as you do, and from here on, I’ll let them continue to make that point. I’m not associated with Notre Dame, and it isn’t really my place to speak for them.
However, I’d like to address a broader issue, which is related to this topic. Abortion is legal in some form in all countries in the world except four. One of those countries is Chile, which my parents came to the US from when I was six years old. We are losing the battle against abortion. Only one fourth of the people in the United States think abortion should be illegal under all circumstances. This is not a battle we can win in this century. Not only are we losing the battle against abortion, we’re losing Catholics. There are Catholics out there like myself who want to work to address political problems like war and poverty, that have a huge impact on people throughout the world. But no, there is this idea that the only issue Catholics should care about is abortion, abortion, abortion. But abortion plays no role in my life or the lives of anyone I know. I’m not going to switch sides in the fight against abortion, but I’m not going to center my political views around it either. And no, I don’t think a tiny clump of undifferentiated cells has a soul. It can split in half and form two people. It can combine with another clump and turn into one person. The soul comes later. I think the Church is wrong on this issue, and I’m not the only one who thinks so. It wouldn’t be the first time the Church has been wrong. It is my view that Catholics should focus more on the sort of activism that actually accomplishes good things, rather than the sort that puts incompetent warmongers like **** Cheney and George W. Bush into positions of power. Do I think that we should give up against abortion? No. But I do think we should try to find common ground with people like Obama, who share the majority of our beliefs, rather than look for reasons to condemn them. If we continue to focus all our energy on abortion, we’re just going to become increasingly marginalized and continue to alienate people. And focusing all our energy on abortion isn’t even logically consistent. If our mission is to do everything we can to prevent abortion, we should be out knocking down clinics and such. But we aren’t. Barring violence and destruction, there’s practically nothing we can do about abortion. We can do something about the myriad of other problems the world faces, and I intend to.
Ok, that’s the end of my rant for now.
E
elts1956
Guest
This is the area where the USCCB make their declaration murky and most people do not IMPLANT IN THEIR BRAIN what the VATICAN HAS ALREADY SAID. :banghead:
BUT,If all candidates support abortion we must FIRST choose to vote for the candidate that is less/least likely to spread the evil of abortion. HOW DID PEOPLE MISS THIS? Sorry Maple, not yelling at you, just very, very FRUSTRATED!
BUT ONLY THEN, after first voting because of the abortion issue, may a Catholic vote for a pro abort candidate IF there is another issue on the ballot which is of EQUAL gravity to the Intrinsic evils the Church listed. This means those who voted for bo had to think that the evils of the War, economy, environment, poverty, etc.etc. were all Intrinsic Evils. The Church does not list them as such, o. :crying:
C
catharina
Guest
Quite right, Luis, I’ve addressed you several times andYou responded twice as though I were addressing you. I was not.
I read some articles written by various pro-life clergy stating that they did not support Obama’s stance on abortion, but nonetheless concluded that it was acceptable for Obama to give the commencement address. They understand the bishops at least as well as you do, and from here on, I’ll let them continue to make that point. I’m not associated with Notre Dame, and it isn’t really my place to speak for them.
However, I’d like to address a broader issue, which is related to this topic. Abortion is legal in some form in all countries in the world except four. One of those countries is Chile, which my parents came to the US from when I was six years old. We are losing the battle against abortion. Only one fourth of the people in the United States think abortion should be illegal under all circumstances. This is not a battle we can win in this century. Not only are we losing the battle against abortion, we’re losing Catholics. There are Catholics out there like myself who want to work to address political problems like war and poverty, that have a huge impact on people throughout the world. But no, there is this idea that the only issue Catholics should care about is abortion, abortion, abortion. But abortion plays no role in my life or the lives of anyone I know. I’m not going to switch sides in the fight against abortion, but I’m not going to center my political views around it either. And no, I don’t think a tiny clump of undifferentiated cells has a soul. It can split in half and form two people. It can combine with another clump and turn into one person. The soul comes later. I think the Church is wrong on this issue, and I’m not the only one who thinks so. It wouldn’t be the first time the Church has been wrong. It is my view that Catholics should focus more on the sort of activism that actually accomplishes good things, rather than the sort that puts incompetent warmongers like **** Cheney and George W. Bush into positions of power. Do I think that we should give up against abortion? No. But I do think we should try to find common ground with people like Obama, who share the majority of our beliefs, rather than look for reasons to condemn them. If we continue to focus all our energy on abortion, we’re just going to become increasingly marginalized and continue to alienate people. And focusing all our energy on abortion isn’t even logically consistent. If our mission is to do everything we can to prevent abortion, we should be out knocking down clinics and such. But we aren’t. Barring violence and destruction, there’s practically nothing we can do about abortion. We can do something about the myriad of other problems the world faces, and I intend to.
Ok, that’s the end of my rant for now.
I’ll continue to address you whenever I decide to do so.
Now, about your practice of the Catholic faith …
Have you forgotten that ALL Catholics are REQUIRED to accept
the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as an infallibly revealed truth?
This doctrine teaches us that our blessed mother Mary was indeed CONCEIVED
without orginal sin on her soul. Do your best to conform YOUR beliefs to the absolute
belief that the Church has taught us regarding conception and that is this:
From the INSTANT of her conception, Mary had no sin on her soul.
Abortion plays no part in your life? You live in the USA?
Did you notice that about 50million of your peers were not able to live until birth.
According to every facet of Church Teaching, each of them has an IMMORTAL soul, and
whether you like it or not, each one of those souls existed from the instant of conception.
Perhaps to better prepare yourself to save the world (!) through objections and work against war and poverty, you might review your CATECHISM because without a value system that recognizes ABSOLUTES (as the Church teaches), you can only repeat the mistakes of history. That would include any and all views of those who stand with you in oppostion to the notion of conception and the immortal soul. Although maybe they are not Catholic. Whatever. (You ARE Catholic so you should know better.)
- Status