Presidential Election Poll 10-2-2012

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Well, fortunately we are not here to sell me personally on the republican ticket. I have already voted my conscious and that vote was easily for Obama, no contest in my view. Among my contemplative and long time Catholic friends he is also the clear choice.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
It is the anger and fear mongering of the republican platform that I have long despised. It’s always about what they are against and never how Government and the Private Sector must BOTH have a role in restraining evil AND caring for the poor. While neither party directly talks to the poor the Democratic party is at least courageous enough to put forward social programs that seek to level the field and provide opportunities for lower and middle class to advance while regulating the greed and fraud of the super wealthy.

I, for one, am convinced that Romney will say whatever is necessary to be elected - and most of what he has to say is his 5 point “plan” and why we should fear the democrats.
Obama has set forth NO agenda for his second term. His campaign merely says “Forward”, though they offer no path to progress.

And how do you define “poor”? College students? Social Security recipients? Families making $50,000 a year? Or do you define the “poor” as truly indigent folks who suffer from mental or physical handicaps that would prevent them from earning a living without government subsistence? If its the latter, I’m all on board with federal and state assistance programs.

As for “leveling the playing field”, what do you mean? Affirmative action? More government employees? Extreme tax measures targeting the wealthiest Americans? Free college for everyone? Forgiveness of student loan debt? I’m a white male attorney who did not benefit from any type of affirmative action. I worked my way through school with student loans. I paid them off and climbed my way through the business and legal world. Now I pay tens of thousands in annual federal and state taxes. My playing field was “level” - I had two cents to my name when I began my college odyssey. Tell me more.
 
You clearly have drank the Romney koolaid! I however would hate to see a return to the “every person for themself” philosophy of the republican platform that landed us in this mess 4 years ago.
Recitation of indisputable facts is “Romney koolaid”? Well, if that’s so, perhaps it should be added to the public water supplies so we can get over the brain fever of the Democrat platform and practices of this administration.

Now, let’s look at platforms for a moment:

Exactly what portion or portions of the Repub platform say it’s “every person for himself” or anything remotely like it? (Hint: It isn’t there.)

Does not the Dem platform endorse “choice” in abortion on demand and homosexual “marriage”? (Hint: Yes it’s there.)

What kind of koolaid does it take to cause a person to insert into the Repub platform something that isn’t there, and ignore totally and obviously immoral provisions in the Dem platform? (Hint: Refer to Kesey, Ken)
 
Well, fortunately we are not here to sell me personally on the republican ticket. I have already voted my conscious and that vote was easily for Obama, no contest in my view. Among my contemplative and long time Catholic friends he is also the clear choice.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for punting on the issues.
 
Well, fortunately we are not here to sell me personally on the republican ticket. I have already voted my conscious and that vote was easily for Obama, no contest in my view. Among my contemplative and long time Catholic friends he is also the clear choice.

Thanks for your thoughts.
You mean your poorly cathicized long time and "contemplative " Catholic friends. My long time and contemplative ECC friends are all voting for Romney
 
You mean your poorly cathicized long time and "contemplative " Catholic friends. My long time and contemplative ECC friends are all voting for Romney
Thank God for diversity among us and the ability for Catholics (and all others) to hold opposing points of view.
 
Thank God for diversity among us and the ability for Catholics (and all others) to hold opposing points of view.
Yeah, well we’ll see how far that gets you when the ultra-progressive faction of the Catholic establishment has a head-on collision with the Democrat party, who are just using them.

It’s gonna be a train wreck.

If Obama gets re-elected, the stage is already set and it will happen over Obamacare in the year 2014, and just keep on going.

If Romney gets elected, it will happen later. Will it will happen 4 years from now? 8 years from now? We have a lot of things that could be the flash point and they’re all simmering. Homosexuality? Abortion? We’ll see. It’s going to be grisly.

Putting Romney in office buys us time, and allows us to have the advantage of fending things of rather than being run over right away. That’s huge.
 
Recitation of indisputable facts is “Romney koolaid”? Well, if that’s so, perhaps it should be added to the public water supplies so we can get over the brain fever of the Democrat platform and practices of this administration.

Now, let’s look at platforms for a moment:

Exactly what portion or portions of the Repub platform say it’s “every person for himself” or anything remotely like it? (Hint: It isn’t there.)

Does not the Dem platform endorse “choice” in abortion on demand and homosexual “marriage”? (Hint: Yes it’s there.)

What kind of koolaid does it take to cause a person to insert into the Repub platform something that isn’t there, and ignore totally and obviously immoral provisions in the Dem platform? (Hint: Refer to Kesey, Ken)
Immoral or Free? While I hold to the Catholic view of a consistent ethic of life from conception to natural death I ALSO agree that in a free society it has to be ok for people to buy guns, marry who they choose, speak their conscious, burn flags and choose abortion.

The fact that abortion is legal does not compel someone to choose or use it. Let your conscious be your guide still applies regardless of the laws of the land. One can live fully within the teachings of the Church in a society that permits behaviors that are outside the teachings of the church. Church and state must forever be separate for us to live free and exercise our beliefs without the imposition of laws or Government controls on our personal freedoms. When we demand that Government is in lockstep with any single belief system we invite conflict and strife among others in the society that do not share a “Catholic” perspective.
 
Immoral or Free? While I hold to the Catholic view of a consistent ethic of life from birth to natural death I ALSO agree that in a free society it has to be ok for people to buy guns, marry who they choose, speak their conscious, burn flags and choose abortion.

The fact that abortion is legal does not compel someone to choose or use it. Let your conscious be your guide still applies regardless of the laws of the land. One can live fully within the teachings of the Church in a society that permits behaviors that are outside the teachings of the church. Church and state must forever be separate for us to live free and exercise our beliefs without the imposition of laws or Government controls on our personal freedoms. When we demand that Government is in lockstep with any single belief system we invite conflict among others in the society that do not share a “Catholic” perspective.
The issue has a lot more to it than you realize. I can tell you don’t get it. A lot of people don’t get it. But here’s what’s really going on:

Most dioceses in the US have been self-insuring and have never covered abortion for their employees. Abortion is held officially to be an objective evil by the Catholic Church. You can look that up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you don’t believe me.

Anyway, dioceses cannot both teach that abortion is an objective evil and participate in any way in the procurement of abortion. This is what is behind all this. Assisting in the procurement of abortion is itself an objective evil. Dioceses can’t do it. Not only because they might not want to, but because they’d be contradicting their own teaching. I also think the rest of the Church would have something to say about it.

Anyway, most Catholics don’t really know what the specifics of the program really are. This is deadly serious. If Obamacare is not repealed before 2014, many Catholic institutions ARE going to shut down. Why? Because they will not be able to pay the fines levied against them.

There is an exemption to Obamacare that applies to “religious employers” but the requirements for the exemption are incredibly tight and attempt to re-define the nature of religious activity in the United States. See below for those requirements. There are four requirements and ALL FOUR must be met, in the opinion of the HHS, to get the exemption. The HHS is the one who decides if the requirements have been met.

The exemption is only for a “religious employer,” defined as “one that (1) Has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose; (2) primarily employs persons who share its religious tenets; (3) primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets; and (4) is a non-profit organization under section 6033(a)(1) and section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) or (iii) of the [Internal Revenue] Code.” HHS notes that these provisions of the Code refer to “churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”

NOTE: “exclusively religious activities of any religious order” means staying in the house and tending to religion proper, not working in any food bank or soup kitchen or school with non-Catholic students, precisely because then the religious order violates rule #3 and loses its exemption to Obamacare.

Penalty?
For non-compliance, which is buying insurance that does not cover abortion: $100 per day per employee, for a grand total of $36,500 per year per employee.
For avoidance, which is dropping the insurance plan and giving the employee some money to obtain his own insurance: $2000 per employee per year PLUS other penalties to punish the employee.

RESULT: These are HUGE fines. IF Obamacare is not repealed or dismantled or defunded by 2014, this law will go into effect for Catholic institutions. I"m not debating you now. This is NOT theoretical or the stuff of internet fights. THIS IS REAL.

We need to either head this thing off, or make contingency plans for the destruction of most of our apostolates as Catholics. It’s just that simple.
 
The issue has a lot more to it than you realize. I can tell you don’t get it. A lot of people don’t get it. But here’s what’s really going on:

Most dioceses in the US have been self-insuring and have never covered abortion for their employees. Abortion is held officially to be an objective evil by the Catholic Church. You can look that up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you don’t believe me.

Anyway, dioceses cannot both teach that abortion is an objective evil and participate in any way in the procurement of abortion. This is what is behind all this. Assisting in the procurement of abortion is itself an objective evil. Dioceses can’t do it. Not only because they might not want to, but because they’d be contradicting their own teaching. I also think the rest of the Church would have something to say about it.

Anyway, most Catholics don’t really know what the specifics of the program really are. This is deadly serious. If Obamacare is not repealed before 2014, many Catholic institutions ARE going to shut down. Why? Because they will not be able to pay the fines levied against them.

There is an exemption to Obamacare that applies to “religious employers” but the requirements for the exemption are incredibly tight and attempt to re-define the nature of religious activity in the United States. See below for those requirements. There are four requirements and ALL FOUR must be met, in the opinion of the HHS, to get the exemption. The HHS is the one who decides if the requirements have been met.

The exemption is only for a “religious employer,” defined as “one that (1) Has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose; (2) primarily employs persons who share its religious tenets; (3) primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets; and (4) is a non-profit organization under section 6033(a)(1) and section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) or (iii) of the [Internal Revenue] Code.” HHS notes that these provisions of the Code refer to “churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”

NOTE: “exclusively religious activities of any religious order” means staying in the house and tending to religion proper, not working in any food bank or soup kitchen, precisely because then the religious order violates rule #3 and loses its exemption to Obamacare.

Penalty?
For non-compliance, which is buying insurance that does not cover abortion: $100 per day per employee, for a grand total of $36,500 per year per employee.
For avoidance, which is dropping the insurance plan and giving the employee some money to obtain his own insurance: $2000 per employee per year PLUS other penalties to punish the employee.
I totally agree that the Government cannot impose on our religious liberties - in this case a change is needed and I agree with the position of the church. Separation of church and state must remain the guiding principle. The Government must not and cannot require Catholic (or any organization) organizations to pay for something that is morally objectionable.
 
I totally agree that the Government cannot impose on religious liberties - in this case a change is needed and I agree with the position of the church. Separation of church and state must remain the guiding principle.
NO. I"m not debating with you. THIS THING IS NOW LAW. The whole pie-in-the-sky whiny thing is OVER. Should, should, shoud and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

The U. S. Supreme Court upheld the law this summer. IT IS GOING INTO EFFECT IN 2014 if we don’t head it off.
 
NO. I"m not debating with you. THIS THING IS NOW LAW. The whole pie-in-the-sky whiny thing is OVER. The U. S. Supreme Court upheld the law this summer. IT IS GOING INTO EFFECT IN 2014 if we don’t head it off.
As I said, a change is needed. I think we agree.
 
As I said, a change is needed. I think we agree.
NO. You still don’t see it.

How exactly do you plan to change it before 2014 if Obama gets into office?

This LAW is ready to be implemented in 2014. Your “should” isn’t going to change that.
 
NO. You still don’t see it.

How do you plan to change it before 2014 if Obama gets into office?
Do you suggest we vote for Romney on the basis of this single issue?

Look, our God is bigger than any of our fears on this or any other issue and neither candidate is in lockstep with the Church (period). In total, Obama is for me still the far better choice. The Catholic church is very active on the topic of religious liberty - I trust that they will remain so regardless of which candidate is elected.
 
Do you suggest we vote for Romney on the basis of this single issue?

Look, our God is bigger than any of our fears on this or any other issue and neither candidate is in lockstep with the Church (period). In total, Obama is for me still the far better choice. The Catholic church is very active on the topic of religious liberty - I trust that they will remain so regardless of which candidate is elected.
I suggest that if you don’t want to see all your precious progressive peace and justice stuff shut down and boarded up, that you realize what’s really going on in the world.

Obamacare is going to shut down every diocesan or religious order apostolate in the country that employs anyone. This includes food banks, soup kitchens, schools, retreat centers, clinics, Right-to-Life branches and more. Many international religious orders are probably going to pull their members out of the United States. It sounds like all that’s okay with you.

Maybe you didn’t really read the requirements for an Obamacare exemption that I posted. All four must be met. Maybe you didn’t really read the penalties that I posted. They are in the thousands of dollars for every employee at the very minimum.

This is the LAW. It’s NOT a proposal. It’s NOT an idea. IT’S THE LAW. It’s been upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States. It WILL go into effect in 2014, barring repeal.

Now I’m going to ask you again, since you didn’t answer the question: How exactly do you plan to change it before 2014 if Obama gets into office?
 
I suggest that if you don’t want to see all your precious progressive peace and justice stuff shut down and boarded up, that you realize what’s really going on in the world.

Obamacare is going to shut down every diocesan or religious order apostolate in the country that employs anyone. Many international religious orders are probably going to pull their members out of the United States. It sounds like that’s okay with you.
Is it okay with you that we allow 50 million Americans to suffer without health care? Is that a better way of caring for the poor (one of the biblical roles of Government discussed by Paul)? This topic is way more complex then simply killing or preserving Obamacare.
 
Is it okay with you that we allow 50 million Americans to suffer without health care? Is that a better way of caring for the poor (one of the biblical roles of Government discussed by Paul)? This topic is way more complex then simply killing or preserving Obamacare.
You’re still not answering my question.

How exactly do you plan to change Obamacare before 2014, if Obama is re-elected??
 
You’re still not answering my question.

How exactly do you plan to change Obamacare before 2014, if Obama is re-elected??
I don’t plan to change Obamacare. I trust that the Church will defend religious liberties (in court if necessary).
 
I don’t plan to change Obamacare. I trust that the Church will defend religious liberties (in court if necessary).
There are all kinds of lawsuits in the courts right now, and they may get us there and they may not. You’re going to put all our eggs in one basket? That’s the plan? Good luck with that. You have one year.

You know, this is going to be interesting either way, isn’t it?

If Romney gets into office, he will repeal or dismantle this persecution. That will only put off the train wreck that’s coming, but putting it off is good.

If Obama gets into office, he won’t repeal it. He likes this law. It’s his trademark law. He’ll do anything he can to keep it in place. If your lawsuits don’t do the trick in one short year, it all comes down.

If it all comes down, it’ll almost be worth it to watch the out-of-touch lose their minds over this when it actually happens. Almost. 🍿🍿
 
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