Presidential Election Poll 10-2-2012

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I am not sure that I understand your reference of the 14th, as it says absolutely nothing on the subject.

The first prohibits the *establishment *of a state religion. Which has absolutely zip to do with a supposed separation of Church and State, a complete liberal fabrication:)

How about that? 🙂

The term was first used by Jefferson, BTW–in 1802, nearly 20 years after the ratification of the Constitution. Which is why he isn’t high on my list of Founding Fathers.

Oddly, he also said:
👍👍
 
I am not sure that I understand your reference of the 14th, as it says absolutely nothing on the subject.

The first prohibits the *establishment *of a state religion. Which has absolutely zip to do with a supposed separation of Church and State, a complete liberal fabrication:)

How about that? 🙂

The term was first used by Jefferson, BTW–in 1802, nearly 20 years after the ratification of the Constitution. Which is why he isn’t high on my list of Founding Fathers.

Oddly, he also said:
The United States Constitution addresses the issue of religion in two places: in the First Amendment, and the Article VI prohibition on religious tests as a condition for holding public office. The First Amendment prohibits the federal government from making a law “respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” This provision was later expanded to state and local governments, through the Incorporation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
 
OK. It says you can not establish a state religion (think Church of England). It does not shut out religious citizens/institutions from arguing their beliefs in the public square. This includes the right to try to influence governmental policy to mirror those religious beliefs.
Separation of Church and State as understood by liberals simply does not exist.
 
OK. It says you can not establish a state religion (think Church of England). It does not shut out religious citizens/institutions from arguing their beliefs in the public square. This includes the right to try to influence governmental policy to mirror those religious beliefs.
Separation of Church and State as understood by liberals simply does not exist.
Is it also true that separation of church and state as understood by conservatives does not exist?
 
I’m Voting for Romney because of Paul Ryan 👍 i also believe that Romney being a business man he and Paul Ryan will get this country back on track.
 
that’s not what I said at all I simply said that we are a nation of laws and as such expect our elected leaders to enforce the laws - no Catholic is required by those laws to practice abortion so despite the existence of those laws we can continue to exercise our Catholics beliefs
Interesting. We were told by many liberals on here that when the President decided not to enforce standing law on immigration regarding Arizona, that was his prudential decision and right.
 
You guys all keep wandering out into the weeds. The point is very simple:

Most dioceses in the US have been self-insuring and have never covered abortion for their employees. Abortion is held officially to be an objective evil by the Catholic Church. You can look that up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church if you don’t believe me.

Anyway, dioceses cannot both teach that abortion is an objective evil and participate in any way in the procurement of abortion. This is what is behind all this. Assisting in the procurement of abortion is itself an objective evil. Dioceses can’t do it. Not only because they might not want to, but because they’d be contradicting their own teaching. I also think the rest of the Church would have something to say about it.

Anyway, most Catholics don’t really know what the specifics of the HHS mandate really are, even though we’ve heard a bunch of generalities. The rest of this post is precisely about the specifics because it’s important that you see them. This is deadly serious. If Obamacare is not repealed before 2014, many Catholic institutions ARE going to shut down. Why? Because they will not be able to pay the fines levied against them.

There is an exemption that applies to “religious employers” but the requirements for the exemption are incredibly tight and they attempt to re-define the nature of religious activity in the United States. There are four requirements and ALL FOUR must be met, in the opinion of the HHS, to get the exemption. They are in the next paragraph, and they are numbered.

The exemption is only for a “religious employer,” defined as “one that (1) Has the inculcation of religious values as its purpose; (2) primarily employs persons who share its religious tenets; (3) primarily serves persons who share its religious tenets; and (4) is a non-profit organization under section 6033(a)(1) and section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) or (iii) of the [Internal Revenue] Code.” HHS notes that these provisions of the Code refer to “churches, their integrated auxiliaries, and conventions or associations of churches, as well as to the exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”

Note: “exclusively religious activities of any religious order” which means staying in the convent and attending only to religion, not running a food bank or a soup kitchen because those exceed the rule #3 above.

And what is the penalty?
For non-compliance, which is buying insurance that does not cover abortion: $100 per day per employee, for a grand total of $36,500 per year per employee.
For avoidance, which is dropping the insurance plan and giving the employee some money to obtain his own insurance: $2000 per employee per year PLUS other penalties to punish the employee.

Now, if you don’t care if soup kitchens, food banks, schools, retreat centers, hospitals, clinics for the poor, Catholic bookstores, Catholic universities & libraries, St. Vincent de Paul, Catholic printers and book publishers, and a host of other Catholic things shut down, by all means wade around in the weeds all you want. But if this bothers you, then your choice is clear. We have to get rid of the HHS mandate and there is only one way to do that. Vote Obama out.
 
The church will absolutely test the applicability of item 3 in court - as written it does not say that those served must share All of the provider’s religious tenets and its impossible to see how the government can limit the population served by a charitable organization - they would have to profile everyone that walked into the soup kitchen!
 
If you mean that do we believe that it exists, then no. Mainly because it doesn’t.
The words “separation of church and state” are not in the text; the idea of separation is. Article VI provides that all state and federal officials “shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” The First Amendment’s Establishment Clause provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”–meaning that not only no church but no “religion” could be made the official faith of the United States. Finally the Free Exercise Clause provides that Congress shall not make laws “prohibiting the free exercise” of religion. (These prohibitions were extended to state governments by the Fourteenth Amendment, whose framers in 1866 wanted to make sure that the states maintained free, democratic systems instead of the old antebellum slave oligarchies that spawned the Civil War.)
 
Now, if you don’t care if soup kitchens, food banks, schools, retreat centers, hospitals, clinics for the poor, Catholic bookstores, Catholic universities & libraries, St. Vincent de Paul, Catholic printers and book publishers, and a host of other Catholic things shut down, by all means wade around in the weeds all you want. But if this bothers you, then your choice is clear. We have to get rid of the HHS mandate and there is only one way to do that. Vote Obama out.
Clearly there is not only one way. A better way is to revise the language to fully exempt religious organizations (See my previous post). No one here speaks of the benefits of HHS…here they are:
  1. The Act was designed to reduce overall health care costs by making services available to the 32 million who currently can’t get insurance. They often use a hospital emergency room as their primary care physician, increasing costs for everyone. This starts in 2014.
  2. For people who can’t afford health insurance, the Federal government will pay the states to add them to Medicaid. The income requirement is expanded up to 133% of the Federal poverty level - roughly $29,000 for a family of four.
  3. Those who don’t qualify for the expanded Medicaid will receive tax credits if their income is below 400% of the poverty level ($88,000 for a family of four). States will be required to set up insurance exchanges to make it easier to shop for private health insurance coverage.
  4. Insurance companies cannot deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions. This benefit applies to everyone in 2014. Insurance companies can no longer drop anyone from coverage once they get sick. If a company denies someone coverage, that person can go to an external appeals process.
  5. Parents can put their children up to age 26 on their health insurance plans. This will bring more profit for health insurance companies, since they will receive more premiums without higher costs for these healthier individuals. As of 2012, more than three million previously uninsured young people were added. (Source: Department of Health and Human Services)
  6. The Medicare “donut hole” gap in coverage will be eliminated by 2020.
  7. People with existing health insurance will keep it. Businesses prefer to offer a tax-free benefit like health insurance to attract good workers. That won’t change under Obamacare.
  8. Obamacare does not apply to businesses with less than 50 employees. Larger businesses are required to offer health insurance, but receive tax credits to help employees pay premiums. In 2014, the tax credit increases to 50%.
  9. The Act will lower the budget deficit by $143 billion over the next 10 years by raising some taxes and shifting more cost burdens. (Source: CBO CBO Report on Health Care Reform and the Budget; Wall Street Journal, What Health Insurance Ruling Means, June 28, 2012; NPR, Medicaid Expansion, June 27, 2012)
 
that’s not what I said at all I simply said that we are a nation of laws and as such expect our elected leaders to enforce the laws - no Catholic is required by those laws to practice abortion so despite the existence of those laws we can continue to exercise our Catholics beliefs
I don’t want our leaders to enforce laws that allow women to pay someone to kill her children. A Catholic cannot vote for a person who supports such abject evil. A Catholic who votes such a morally deficient person into office is as guilty of the deaths of these children as the person they voted in. the only exception to this, per our church, is when a candidate’s opponent is more pro-abortion than they are at which case we are allowed to cast a vote to limit evil.
 
Cardinal Burke does not have to concern himself with the fact that we are a nation that values the separation of church and state…
Correct As a member of the magisterium of the one true church he has to concern himself with greater things-like the salvation of our immortal souls. I am at a loss as to where you came to an understanding of the separation of church and state that seems to exclude people of faith from fully participating in the political process.
 
Clearly there is not only one way. A better way is to revise the language to fully exempt religious organizations (See my previous post). No one here speaks of the benefits of HHS…here they are:
  1. The Act was designed to reduce overall health care costs by making services available to the 32 million who currently can’t get insurance. They often use a hospital emergency room as their primary care physician, increasing costs for everyone. This starts in 2014.
  2. For people who can’t afford health insurance, the Federal government will pay the states to add them to Medicaid. The income requirement is expanded up to 133% of the Federal poverty level - roughly $29,000 for a family of four.
  3. Those who don’t qualify for the expanded Medicaid will receive tax credits if their income is below 400% of the poverty level ($88,000 for a family of four). States will be required to set up insurance exchanges to make it easier to shop for private health insurance coverage.
  4. Insurance companies cannot deny children coverage for pre-existing conditions. This benefit applies to everyone in 2014. Insurance companies can no longer drop anyone from coverage once they get sick. If a company denies someone coverage, that person can go to an external appeals process.
  5. Parents can put their children up to age 26 on their health insurance plans. This will bring more profit for health insurance companies, since they will receive more premiums without higher costs for these healthier individuals. As of 2012, more than three million previously uninsured young people were added. (Source: Department of Health and Human Services)
  6. The Medicare “donut hole” gap in coverage will be eliminated by 2020.
  7. People with existing health insurance will keep it. Businesses prefer to offer a tax-free benefit like health insurance to attract good workers. That won’t change under Obamacare.
  8. Obamacare does not apply to businesses with less than 50 employees. Larger businesses are required to offer health insurance, but receive tax credits to help employees pay premiums. In 2014, the tax credit increases to 50%.
  9. The Act will lower the budget deficit by $143 billion over the next 10 years by raising some taxes and shifting more cost burdens. (Source: CBO CBO Report on Health Care Reform and the Budget; Wall Street Journal, What Health Insurance Ruling Means, June 28, 2012; NPR, Medicaid Expansion, June 27, 2012)
the law will do none of the above has has become abundantly clear since this ill thought out legislation was passed. Obviously you know nothing about small businesses. many, like me, have dropped coverage for their employees rather than participate in funding evil. And when the employees go on the market to get their own insurance they find that their rates, like mine, have increased over 30% since this abomination was passed
 
Correct As a member of the magisterium of the one true church he has to concern himself with greater things-like the salvation of our immortal souls. I am at a loss as to where you came to an understanding of the separation of church and state that seems to exclude people of faith from fully participating in the political process.
Who said anything about not participating in the political process? The fact is our nation values diversity, including religious diversity which means the Government, in a free society, will not be bound by any one belief system, including the Catholic church. Unless of course you are advocating the equivalent of Sharia law it is incomprehensible how any catholic could or should expect that our nation will in 100% of situations remain in lockstep with the Catholic Church.
 
**the law will do none of the above has has become abundantly clear **since this ill thought out legislation was passed. Obviously you know nothing about small businesses. many, like me, have dropped coverage for their employees rather than participate in funding evil. And when the employees go on the market to get their own insurance they find that their rates, like mine, have increased over 30% since this abomination was passed
I actually know a lot about small business…I started and ran one for 6 years and have been self employed for the last 5 years.

While I understand the natural reaction of fear to change the conservative answer is simply move the problem from the public to the private sector where millions will and have fallen through the cracks. The government must defend against evil and defend the poor…and we must participate by giving the laws of the land an opportunity to work for the people and adjust them, over time, to achieve fair and just outcomes. Most of Obamacare is not yet even in effect…fear, with no alternative that has itself been proven is the only hope for the Republican ticket.
 
I actually know a lot about small business…I started and ran one for 6 years and have been self employed for the last 5 years.

While I understand the natural reaction of fear to change the conservative answer is simply move the problem from the public to the private sector where millions will and have fallen through the cracks. The government must defend against evil and defend the poor…and we must participate by giving the laws of the land an opportunity to work for the people and adjust them, over time, to achieve fair and just outcomes. Most of Obamacare is not yet even in effect…fear, with no alternative that has itself been proven is the only hope for the Republican ticket.
perhaps you have no problem funding evil. I will not do it. Obama care has been an absolute disaster for anyone who pays their own premiums or in my case used to pay the premiums for their employees. The government does not defend the poor by forcing me too violate my religious beliefs by funding abortion causing drugs and contraception.

even after this abomination takes full effect we will still be stuck with 20 million people uninsured and rates 40 to 50% higher than they are now. Even if it worked as advertised i will let them shut me down before i spend one penny on an insurance policy that funds evil.
 
Who said anything about not participating in the political process? The fact is our nation values diversity, including religious diversity which means the Government, in a free society, will not be bound by any one belief system, including the Catholic church. Unless of course you are advocating the equivalent of Sharia law it is incomprehensible how any catholic could or should expect that our nation will in 100% of situations remain in lockstep with the Catholic Church.
I am advocating sharia law? bye.
 
I’m reminded of the section in Tolkiens “The Hobbit” where certain creatures are turned to stone when the sun comes up. Unfortunately in the artificial world of CAf there is no direct sunlight-our only alternative is to make sure we don’t feed them.
 
I’m reminded of the section in Tolkiens “The Hobbit” where certain creatures are turned to stone when the sun comes up. Unfortunately in the artificial world of CAf there is no direct sunlight-our only alternative is to make sure we don’t feed them.
I would normally not respond to such sarcasm however since your id lists you as an Elder and Forum Supporter so I will remind you that the conduct rules of this forum state that you must remain charitable in your discussions.
 
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