Priest accused of groping teen

[slewi]

**And the hits keep coming…

December 20, 2005 1:06:19 PM EST **
Priest accused of groping teen

AUSTIN, Texas, Dec. 20 (UPI) – Police in Austin, Texas, arrested a 74-year-old Roman Catholic priest on suspicion of groping a 16-year-old boy in a movie theater.
Police said the boy was sitting alone in the theater last Friday, when the priest sat next to him even though there were plenty of other empty seats, reports the Austin American-Statesman. An hour into the movie, the priest allegedly reached over and groped the teenager, police alleged.
They said the boy ran from the theater and told the manager, who called police. The priest was released from the county jail after posting bail.
St. Paul the Apostle Catholic Church, where the priest was serving, has removed him from active ministry until the case is resolved, a bishop said.
The Diocese of Austin is also conducting an internal investigation, the newspaper reported. The diocese said the accused, who has no history of sexual abuse, became a priest in 1999 after his wife died.

 

[TheRaiders]

I’ll reserve judgement until the facts come out. A lot of people make things up. Trust me I’ve seen it. If there are people sick enough to molest children (which there are), then you must agree there are people sick enough to make up a story that might get them millions of dollars and ruin othr people’s lives. 16 year old boys can be very minipulative. They are practically adults, and they know how to minipulate the law. I’ve seen a 16 year old boy do disrespectful things to adults and openly flaunt them that they can’t touch him without getting arrested.
If you still don’t believe me this is a posibility know his: Liberals refused to accept the possibliity that women would make up sexual harassment cases until all those women started accusing Bill Clinton. I know people make things up for attention/money, no matter what anyone tells me.
Also, of the millions of molstation cases nationwide, priests are but a small number of them. These reports we see in the news are often from 50 years ago, and the priest is often dead and can’t defend himself. Don’t think that it is a widespread problem any more than it is in the gay community a large. Its a problem of sick people, and homosexuals are way more likely to molest children because they are, in fact, sick. We need to start testing priests for just how homosexual they are. If they are mildly homosexual, and recognize it as a disorder they should become a priest, and get help for it. If they are strongly gay and don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, they should not become priests. In fact, I think they should be treated just like any person with a mental disorder. We know they will be 3 times more likely to molest children, and they are way more likely to develop depression and other dissorders. Why not have compassion on them and tell them something is wrong with them? Why not tell them you love them, and you want to help them avoid hell, and a miserable earthly life so you’ll put them in touch with someone who treats their disorder as a disorder?

 

[snoopy]

TheRaiders:

I’ll reserve judgement until the facts come out. A lot of people make things up. Trust me I’ve seen it. If there are people sick enough to molest children (which there are), then you must agree there are people sick enough to make up a story that might get them millions of dollars and ruin othr people’s lives. 16 year old boys can be very minipulative. They are practically adults, and they know how to minipulate the law. I’ve seen a 16 year old boy do disrespectful things to adults and openly flaunt them that they can’t touch him without getting arrested.
If you still don’t believe me this is a posibility know his: Liberals refused to accept the possibliity that women would make up sexual harassment cases until all those women started accusing Bill Clinton. I know people make things up for attention/money, no matter what anyone tells me.
Also, of the millions of molstation cases nationwide, priests are but a small number of them. These reports we see in the news are often from 50 years ago, and the priest is often dead and can’t defend himself. Don’t think that it is a widespread problem any more than it is in the gay community a large. Its a problem of sick people, and homosexuals are way more likely to molest children because they are, in fact, sick. We need to start testing priests for just how homosexual they are. If they are mildly homosexual, and recognize it as a disorder they should become a priest, and get help for it. If they are strongly gay and don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, they should not become priests. In fact, I think they should be treated just like any person with a mental disorder. We know they will be 3 times more likely to molest children, and they are way more likely to develop depression and other dissorders. Why not have compassion on them and tell them something is wrong with them? Why not tell them you love them, and you want to help them avoid hell, and a miserable earthly life so you’ll put them in touch with someone who treats their disorder as a disorder?

It sounds like you have already made up your mind. While you do say you will reserve judgement until the facts come out, you have already dismissed this child as a manipulator and liar, and as someone who bait adults and then gloat that the adults can’t do anything back. Then you proceed to feel sorry for the dead priests who can’t defend themselves and blame the media for reporting the crimes. Lastly, you rationalize that the homosexual community is entirely to blame and forget that well educated, brilliant and saavy bishops and cardinals violated the law and did not report these heinous crimes, and in fact shuffled predator priests to other parishes so they could molest again and again. Not once did you give the child any favorable judgement. If they try the case, I sure hope you are not called to serve on this jury.

 

[TheRaiders]

I am reserving judgement. I merely presented a possible case scenario a person like you probably would never consider. I live where a priest committed suicide after being accused of a crime he likely didn’t commit.
If I didn’t mention any of those things you talk about it is because I’m sure you and everyone else has heard them before. I was also giving you a clear-cut reason for why those child predators were never found in the ranks of Holy men. They refused to look at homosexuality as a sickness. Once they were found out to have had complaints against them, their naive superiors thought a change of scenery would do them good. Also, you forget how convincing people that do these things can be. How many thousands have been supposedly rehabilitated in jail, only to be released and do the same thing again? It isn’t just the Church with this problem. There are far more predators in the world abroad, and good priests make up the vast majority of the Church. The media, you, and the Catholic Church until now have refused to look at the probable causes of such ilnesses. Also, do you not think it a tragedy even if one con person brought up a case against a priest that was false? I guarantee you it has happened. I’ve seen how people abuse our justice system, especialy when the defendent comes from a background the judge and jury do not like. African Americans have seen this in criminal cases. Men have seen this in divorce cases (my uncle being one of them) where the woman always gets the child even if she is hanging around with bad men and taking drugs. The priests on trial come from a background both protestant, liberal and agnostic America does not like: the priesthood.

 

[snoopy]

TheRaiders:

I am reserving judgement. I merely presented a possible case scenario a person like you probably would never consider. I live where a priest committed suicide after being accused of a crime he likely didn’t commit.
If I didn’t mention any of those things you talk about it is because I’m sure you and everyone else has heard them before. I was also giving you a clear-cut reason for why those child predators were never found in the ranks of Holy men. They refused to look at homosexuality as a sickness. Once they were found out to have had complaints against them, their naive superiors thought a change of scenery would do them good. Also, you forget how convincing people that do these things can be. How many thousands have been supposedly rehabilitated in jail, only to be released and do the same thing again? It isn’t just the Church with this problem. There are far more predators in the world abroad, and good priests make up the vast majority of the Church. The media, you, and the Catholic Church until now have refused to look at the probable causes of such ilnesses. Also, do you not think it a tragedy even if one con person brought up a case against a priest that was false? I guarantee you it has happened. I’ve seen how people abuse our justice system, especialy when the defendent comes from a background the judge and jury do not like. African Americans have seen this in criminal cases. Men have seen this in divorce cases (my uncle being one of them) where the woman always gets the child even if she is hanging around with bad men and taking drugs. The priests on trial come from a background both protestant, liberal and agnostic America does not like: the priesthood.

If you were truly reserving judgement, then you would have some kind words about the thousands of innocent victims also. Or at least you would be impartial when speaking of both sides. Rerread your post, you are not impartial. I know of suicide concerning this matter also. My friend killed himself in 1977 after being abused by a priest. His life and his loving families lives were totally destroyed. And for what? Because some cowardly bishop couldn’t turn over a pedophile to the police? What do you think my friend’s live was worth. Nothing evidently to some of the superiors. They were more concerned about avoiding scandal than protecting children. You talk about “their naive superiors thinking that a change of scenery would do them good.” What part of the words"criminal behavior" don’t you get? This is a CRIME!!! They should have turned the priests over to the police immediately and let the professionals there sort it out. It should never have been dealt with within the church walls. It was a crime.Would the church have covered up murder as well? Raping of children is just as big of a deal as murder is. Oprah said it well, as she was a victim herself. She said it really doesn’t matter that much what was done to the child, whether it was a finger or a penis or a feel. It’s what it does to your mind more than what it does to your body. The sense of betrayal is the most devastating thing you can imagine. Even more so when it is done by someone who is your protector and a man of God. What the real crime is IMHO, though is that no one of authority stuck up for my friend. The bishops and the church turned their back on him and called him a liar. What do you think that does to a child. To be abused in such a heinous manner and then be called a liar???There are sick people in every walk of life. The priesthood is no different. What is different though is that the predators were not turned over to the police as would be expected anywhere, anytime, anyplace. They knew it was a crime even back in the 40’s and 50’s, just like a murder and they did nothing to protect the children. The bishops and cardinals had a responsibility to call the police and they didn’t. Bottom line.

 

[Confiteor]

snoopy:

If you were truly reserving judgement, then you would have some kind words about the thousands of innocent victims also. Or at least you would be impartial when speaking of both sides. Rerread your post, you are not impartial. I know of suicide concerning this matter also. My friend killed himself in 1977 after being abused by a priest. His life and his loving families lives were totally destroyed. And for what? Because some cowardly bishop couldn’t turn over a pedophile to the police? What do you think my friend’s live was worth. Nothing evidently to some of the superiors. They were more concerned about avoiding scandal than protecting children. You talk about “their naive superiors thinking that a change of scenery would do them good.” What part of the words"criminal behavior" don’t you get? This is a CRIME!!! They should have turned the priests over to the police immediately and let the professionals there sort it out. It should never have been dealt with within the church walls. It was a crime.Would the church have covered up murder as well? Raping of children is just as big of a deal as murder is. Oprah said it well, as she was a victim herself. She said it really doesn’t matter that much what was done to the child, whether it was a finger or a penis or a feel. It’s what it does to your mind more than what it does to your body. The sense of betrayal is the most devastating thing you can imagine. Even more so when it is done by someone who is your protector and a man of God. What the real crime is IMHO, though is that no one of authority stuck up for my friend. The bishops and the church turned their back on him and called him a liar. What do you think that does to a child. To be abused in such a heinous manner and then be called a liar???There are sick people in every walk of life. The priesthood is no different. What is different though is that the predators were not turned over to the police as would be expected anywhere, anytime, anyplace. They knew it was a crime even back in the 40’s and 50’s, just like a murder and they did nothing to protect the children. The bishops and cardinals had a responsibility to call the police and they didn’t. Bottom line.

There is no excuse for the abusing priests and the bishops who failed to act appropriately. I’m very sorry for what happened to your friend and for the way it ended. The priests and bishops who engaged in these crimes abused the trust placed in them and caused grave harm to so many people --the abuse victims, the parishioners in those parishes where hard earned money is going to pay lawsuit damages, their priest brothers who live holy, exemplary lives and work long hours with relatively little compensation, and other Catholics who have had their faith challenged by this tragedy. But innocent priests CAN be victims too. Sometimes they are falsely accused; they are quite vulnerable to this sort of thing especially in the confessional and other times when there is one on one counseling. In fact, all those the priests who would never, ever harm a child or hit on anyone, male or female, have already suffered so much in terms of the way their collective vocation is perceived. Instead of being revered for their role as Alter Christus, they practically get spit on at times…In the incident quoted here, it said the priest sat next to the youth; if that is true, it doesn’t sound good. Most priests are extra cautious now because of the times in which we live. But still, sitting next to someone doesn’t necessarily mean “groping.” so yes, reserve judgment…but keep in mind that the press is often quick to accuse and slow to retract! I hope the original poster will keep us informed as this develops…

 

[Libero]

I am reserving judgement. I merely presented a possible case scenario a person like you probably would never consider. I live where a priest committed suicide after being accused of a crime he likely didn’t commit.
If I didn’t mention any of those things you talk about it is because I’m sure you and everyone else has heard them before. I was also giving you a clear-cut reason for why those child predators were never found in the ranks of Holy men. They refused to look at homosexuality as a sickness. Once they were found out to have had complaints against them, their naive superiors thought a change of scenery would do them good. Also, you forget how convincing people that do these things can be. How many thousands have been supposedly rehabilitated in jail, only to be released and do the same thing again? It isn’t just the Church with this problem. There are far more predators in the world abroad, and good priests make up the vast majority of the Church. The media, you, and the Catholic Church until now have refused to look at the probable causes of such ilnesses. Also, do you not think it a tragedy even if one con person brought up a case against a priest that was false? I guarantee you it has happened. I’ve seen how people abuse our justice system, especialy when the defendent comes from a background the judge and jury do not like. African Americans have seen this in criminal cases. Men have seen this in divorce cases (my uncle being one of them) where the woman always gets the child even if she is hanging around with bad men and taking drugs. The priests on trial come from a background both protestant, liberal and agnostic America does not like: the priesthood.

Are you sure you are looking at this with an open mind? There appears to be alot of set ideas in your posts. It definetely sounds as if you are trying to shift alot of the blame on homosexuality, it does not belong there. There was one case of paedophillia and complete sickness that completely shocked England in the past few years, the Ian Hutnley case, he was not homosexual. It sounds an awful lot like there is alot of repeated propoganda in your post.

 

[Adonis33]

snoopy:

If you were truly reserving judgement, then you would have some kind words about the thousands of innocent victims also. Or at least you would be impartial when speaking of both sides. Rerread your post, you are not impartial. I know of suicide concerning this matter also. My friend killed himself in 1977 after being abused by a priest. His life and his loving families lives were totally destroyed. And for what? Because some cowardly bishop couldn’t turn over a pedophile to the police? What do you think my friend’s live was worth. Nothing evidently to some of the superiors. They were more concerned about avoiding scandal than protecting children. You talk about “their naive superiors thinking that a change of scenery would do them good.” What part of the words"criminal behavior" don’t you get? This is a CRIME!!! They should have turned the priests over to the police immediately and let the professionals there sort it out. It should never have been dealt with within the church walls. It was a crime.Would the church have covered up murder as well? Raping of children is just as big of a deal as murder is. Oprah said it well, as she was a victim herself. She said it really doesn’t matter that much what was done to the child, whether it was a finger or a penis or a feel. It’s what it does to your mind more than what it does to your body. The sense of betrayal is the most devastating thing you can imagine. Even more so when it is done by someone who is your protector and a man of God. What the real crime is IMHO, though is that no one of authority stuck up for my friend. The bishops and the church turned their back on him and called him a liar. What do you think that does to a child. To be abused in such a heinous manner and then be called a liar???There are sick people in every walk of life. The priesthood is no different. What is different though is that the predators were not turned over to the police as would be expected anywhere, anytime, anyplace. They knew it was a crime even back in the 40’s and 50’s, just like a murder and they did nothing to protect the children. The bishops and cardinals had a responsibility to call the police and they didn’t. Bottom line.

What’s wrong with waitin until all the facts come out??? Do you have something against due process?

If he’s guilty, then he must be punished, but we don’t know all the facts.

 

[Nohome]

TheRaiders:

I’ll reserve judgement until the facts come out.

I’ll cast my judgement right now, not about groping but keeping up pious appearances.

Police said the boy was sitting alone in the theater last Friday, when the priest sat next to him even though there were plenty of other empty seats.

IF this is true, THEN this priest was very foolish. Let’s face it, the priesthood has a black eye right now and all priests should avoid even a HINT of (name removed by moderator)ropriety. Anyone who has ever gone to a theater knows that we give space to those around us. He should have sat by himself to avoid any potential for scandal. If he is innocent of groping he is guilty of poor judgement.

Nohome

 

[TheRaiders]

I know what you mean by pious appearences. If it is true he sat next to the kid, then even if he didn’t do anything wrong he should have used better judgement.
Like I said, I am reserving judgement on this case. I am not reserving judgement on people blowing this worldwide scandal way out of proportion. I am not reserving judgement on those (and you know they exist) who are exploiting this whole thing for money. We are talking bilions of dollars that could be going to schools, hospitals, church programs, AIDS programs, and homeless programs. A lot of money should go to abuse victims. But not to thousands of lawyers. Not to cases that date back 50 years, and the defendants are dead. Not to cases that are filed by con artists. Thats all I am saying. This kid could be legitimate.
A man who molests a child is sick. They’ve allowed the devil in themselves. If a man (heterosexual or homosexual) has tendancies towards inherantly wrong and deviant sexual activities, then the devil already has a foot hold on them. This needs to be accounted for when reviewing priests. You accuse me of something that I think you are doing yourself: refuse to have sympathy for the other side of the tragedy. On top of that you seem to refuse to acknowledge or even refute my idea that homosexual priests make up the majority of abusers in the Church. Nationwide, they are 3 times more likely to do this stuff.

 

[CatholicCid]

Just out of curousity (sp?), if it was truly an empty theater, how do they know he sat next to the boy?

From the reports, it seems the boy went and reported it… so we wouldn’t know where he was sitting…

 

[Nohome]

TheRaiders:

You accuse me of something that I think you are doing yourself: refuse to have sympathy for the other side of the tragedy. On top of that you seem to refuse to acknowledge or even refute my idea that homosexual priests make up the majority of abusers in the Church. Nationwide, they are 3 times more likely to do this stuff.

Woh! Back up the wagon! I never discussed this with you ever. You sure can read a lot into a post.

Nohome

 

[stanley123]

TheRaiders:

On top of that you seem to refuse to acknowledge or even refute my idea that homosexual priests make up the majority of abusers in the Church. Nationwide, they are 3 times more likely to do this stuff.

The lawsuit by Father Hoatson has something to say about that:
michnews.com/artman/publish/article_10804.shtml
michnews.com/article_12_13_05.shtml

 

[Nohome]

stanley123:

The lawsuit by Father Hoatson has something to say about that:

Boy does it ever, this is actual language from the lawsuit:

1. There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia, but sexual predators have been protected, concealed and affirmatively assisted by the defendants, those in power or positions of trust because such an overwhelming percentage of clergy and bishops are compromised by their own hypocrisy, or fear of blackmail by predators, and this helps understand and explain the retaliation against the plaintiff.

 

[snoopy]

Adonis33:

What’s wrong with waitin until all the facts come out??? Do you have something against due process?

If he’s guilty, then he must be punished, but we don’t know all the facts.

I agree completely. The Raiders, however started this and was attacking this particular child without knowing any facts. I guarantee I will be always lurking in the shadows going to bat for the children when I hear people dismiss them as liars and manipulators without knowing facts. I also can’t stomach people beating the same old homosexuality drum when there is really a two-fold crime. The predator priest and the cowardly bishops and cardinals who didn’t protect children. If homosexuality is truly to blame, then are these people saying that all bishops and cardinals who moved priests from parish to parish are homosexuals also? There will always be perverts, but hopefully we have learned something, and the church will not help perverts to commit crimes and harm children any more. Now for the justice part. Victims are entitled to compensation, but even more importantly, turn the accused over to the police and let them sort it out. Never try to handle this again within the church walls. The church is not and has never been qualified to deal with this. It is a police matter. Innocent priests should be compensated also. Hopefully the truth will come out and everyone will be ok in the end.

 

[TheRaiders]

Sorry Nohome, I was directing that at Snoopy. I have no contention with anything you’ve said on this post.
Snoopy, I am not accusing that child at all. I never said he is making it up so don’t put words in my mouth. I said its been done before so don’t be all dramatic. You agree with my whole point on this post: lets wait before we ruin a good man’s reputation or accuse the kid of making things up. So we both agree. Don’t resent me for presenting a case about the priest who was wrongly accused and commited suicide. I am not saying this is the case here.
Other than that, the homosexual thing is an aside. It is part of the bigger picture if in fact this is a true accusation. Nohome: A judge saying there is no connection between homosexuality and the priest scandals is rediculous and not conclusive evidence.
Consider this: While there have been priests who were pedophiles, the overwhelming majority of cases involved a disorder called ephebophilia, a term that refers to sexual attraction to minors who have arrived at puberty (i.e., teenagers). These teenagers are overwhelmingly boys. That means the scandal’s very nature is homosexual. To say it isn’t is like saying AIDS isn’t an HIV problem. The only reason we are afraid to say it is, is because we think it will cause a backlash against gays. I don’t propose that at all. I wish every gay person in the whole world would join the Church. I know some who have. I wish we would all love them, but have the courage to stand by the Church’s stance on homosexuality. You can love a homosexual man or woman and still be an orthodox Catholic. Jesus loved the prostitute, without forsaking the laws of His father. It was the law that lead her to the feet of Jesus. And the law lead the good thief next to Jesus on a cross.

 

[TheRaiders]

The secular media in the United States are overwhelmingly sympathetic to the homosexual movement. This was admitted recently by Al Rantel, a talk-show host on KABC, a major Los Angeles radio station, during a June 14 interview on CNN:

"I do not say this happily . . . because, as you may know, I happen to be gay myself. I’m openly gay here on the radio in Los Angeles and have been for many years.

"But I have to tell you that, you know, even if you are gay, two and two is still four, and there’s this proverbial 3,000-pound elephant sitting in the room that no one wants to talk about. This is not a pedophile issue, although the media called it a pedophile issue, because they do not want to insult the gay community. They do not want to be politically incorrect.

“But what you have here are not pedophiles. You have predatory gay men—and there are some of us, believe me. I do not happen to be one of them, but there are some, and we should all admit they’re there. And these predatory gay men found their way into the Catholic priesthood in inordinately large numbers—you know, it makes the Boy Scouts look prescient with what they did. And these gay men have gone after young males. And I think it’s disgraceful, and I think the media needs to address this. The gay community needs to address this.” (For the program transcript, see www.cnn.com/transcripts/0206/14/tl.00.html. )

 

[BaldwinIV]

Well said.

TheRaiders:

Consider this: While there have been priests who were pedophiles, the overwhelming majority of cases involved a disorder called ephebophilia, a term that refers to sexual attraction to minors who have arrived at puberty (i.e., teenagers). These teenagers are overwhelmingly boys. That means the scandal’s very nature is homosexual. To say it isn’t is like saying AIDS isn’t an HIV problem. The only reason we are afraid to say it is, is because we think it will cause a backlash against gays. I don’t propose that at all. I wish every gay person in the whole world would join the Church. I know some who have. I wish we would all love them, but have the courage to stand by the Church’s stance on homosexuality. You can love a homosexual man or woman and still be an orthodox Catholic. Jesus loved the prostitute, without forsaking the laws of His father. It was the law that lead her to the feet of Jesus. And the law lead the good thief next to Jesus on a cross.

 

[Libero]

Consider this: While there have been priests who were pedophiles, the overwhelming majority of cases involved a disorder called ephebophilia, a term that refers to sexual attraction to minors who have arrived at puberty (i.e., teenagers). These teenagers are overwhelmingly boys. That means the scandal’s very nature is homosexual. To say it isn’t is like saying AIDS isn’t an HIV problem. The only reason we are afraid to say it is, is because we think it will cause a backlash against gays. I don’t propose that at all. I wish every gay person in the whole world would join the Church. I know some who have. I wish we would all love them, but have the courage to stand by the Church’s stance on homosexuality. You can love a homosexual man or woman and still be an orthodox Catholic. Jesus loved the prostitute, without forsaking the laws of His father. It was the law that lead her to the feet of Jesus. And the law lead the good thief next to Jesus on a cross.

Ephebophillia is not the same as homosexuality, that much is obvious, there are numerous homosexuals who are not attracted to young boys, besides, this topic is so vague in itself one cannot make a good analysis of it. I do not say that there is a huge relation between homosexuality and sexual relations between minors, because if I were to it were seriously damage my credibility.

It is evident that some people will actually only appreciate that these “relations between homosexuality and ephebophillia” are dodgy when they have to tell a homosexual that the relations are there.

Do you believe quoting one person from the media makes your point true?

 

[TheRaiders]

No I don’t believe quoting one person makes it true. It’s just another voice out there, you can take it or leave it.
Use logic though. I know lots of heterosexual men who are attracted to 17 year old girls and 16 year old girls (i.e. Olsen twins, etc.). These are post-pubescent girls, and it is an understandable attraction. To dwell on it would be lust, and to act on it would be statutory rape. But the attraction is there for a lot of men.
That said, don’t you think it reasonable to say that a man attracted to men, would also be attracted to post-pubescent boys in some cases? Like heterosexual men, not everyone will dwell on it or act on it. But also like heterosexual men, there will be people who do. It is a stretch to say that a purely heterosexual man will all of a sudden develope an attraction for post-pubescent boys.
Since we know the majority of the cases in the Church have been of this nature (post-pubescent boys) us thinking people can make a connection without hurting our credibility. Everything we do must be done with love, however, or it is not Christian. We must still love homosexuals. My best friend from childhood just told me he is gay. I still love him, but I told him it is a sin if he acts upon it. I told him of other friends of mine that have overcome temptation to be orthohdox Roman Catholics.
That said, I hope this priest did not grope this post-pubescent boy but if he did I would question the screening process for priests. We must take into account homosexuality, even for people considering entering the Church as lay people. They must understand it is a sin to act on it, or promote it publicly and that Jesus still loves them and will give them the strength to overcome it. They need to know we will be there for them too.