Priest accused of groping teen

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Dear The Raiders:

If homosexuality is truly to blame, then are you saying that all bishops and cardinals who moved predator priests from parish to parish are homosexuals also?
 
You won’t dissagree with me on my point that screening for homosexual tendancies like the Church did before the 1960’s, when the sexual liberation movements pressured psychologists to delist homosexuality as a dissordered condition., would have prevented at least more than half of these abuse cases since they were homosexual in nature.
That said, I won’t dissagree with your point either, that Bishops passing abusive priests from parish to parish was also part of the problem. I think, however, that the two are related. It was an unwillingness to look at people’s tendancies towards any kind of sexual deviancy when considering priests, that allowed so many bad priests into the ranks. The Bishops were so afraid to descriminate, and as was Pope John Paul II, who became a priest in his native Poland where open gays were persecuted. The Church refused to believe that this is a sickness that some people won’t be able to control. They refused to believe that these cases of abuse were more than isolated incidents, and refused to do what many still refuse to do today: analyze whether a man’s homosexual tendancies would be too strong for them to overcome and lead to them commiting mortal sin, whether with other grown men, or with children.
 
You won’t dissagree with me on my point that screening for homosexual tendancies like the Church did before the 1960’s, when the sexual liberation movements pressured psychologists to delist homosexuality as a dissordered condition., would have prevented at least more than half of these abuse cases since they were homosexual in nature.
We do not know that. It may be due to the fact that the period of scientific research into homosexuality was occuring, and that scientists believed that homosexuality was influenced by genetics or science of the body, rather than just environment, making it far less of a disorder.
That said, I won’t dissagree with your point either, that Bishops passing abusive priests from parish to parish was also part of the problem. I think, however, that the two are related. It was an unwillingness to look at people’s tendancies towards any kind of sexual deviancy when considering priests, that allowed so many bad priests into the ranks. The Bishops were so afraid to descriminate, and as was Pope John Paul II, who became a priest in his native Poland where open gays were persecuted. The Church refused to believe that this is a sickness that some people won’t be able to control. They refused to believe that these cases of abuse were more than isolated incidents, and refused to do what many still refuse to do today: analyze whether a man’s homosexual tendancies would be too strong for them to overcome and lead to them commiting mortal sin, whether with other grown men, or with children.
I was reading online articles about Bishop Zeimann and Bishop Moreno the other day, and I really was shocked, that any bishop could allow such activity.

I wouldn’t deny that some homosexuals are ill, and therefore their sexual orientation becomes a vent for their illness, maybe even that their homosexuality is due to their illness, but I would also stress that this is common in heterosexuality, to use sex as a vent or “weapon”
Since we know the majority of the cases in the Church have been of this nature (post-pubescent boys) us thinking people can make a connection without hurting our credibility. Everything we do must be done with love, however, or it is not Christian. We must still love homosexuals. My best friend from childhood just told me he is gay. I still love him, but I told him it is a sin if he acts upon it. I told him of other friends of mine that have overcome temptation to be orthohdox Roman Catholics.
I agree that some cases were homosexual, but also that some cases were solely priests attracted to younger teens, that their orientation is a huge irregularity, and has maybe been artificially changed.
 
Even if it is part of their genetics, it would still be a dissorder. There are many dissorders that can be helped that are genetic.
Many men are sadly destined for psychotic episodes around the age of 20-25. We must not throw up our hands and say: “they were born with those genetics, lets not help them overcome this sickness.”
I think the sickness also has to do with our culture. Men that are born with feminine attributes are ostracized and lead to believe they are gay. In some Native American cultures there was the “Berdache”. This was a man that didn’t want to go on raids or marry a woman. They took the role of a woman, but not sexualy. They cooked, cleaned, put up/took down the teepee, etc.
We as Americans need to realize that just becuase a kid doesn’t like sports, and hangs out with girls we don’t have to lead him to think he has to have sex with men. We don’t have to ostracize them so they feel the need to join the gay social and political movement for acceptance. We don’t need to encourage them to accept their gayness. They are just feminine men, and that’s OK. It is a dissorder to be gay. It is a sin to act upon it. It is normal for some men to be feminine.
 
Even if it is part of their genetics, it would still be a dissorder. There are many dissorders that can be helped that are genetic.
Many men are sadly destined for psychotic episodes around the age of 20-25. We must not throw up our hands and say: “they were born with those genetics, lets not help them overcome this sickness.”
I think the sickness also has to do with our culture. Men that are born with feminine attributes are ostracized and lead to believe they are gay. In some Native American cultures there was the “Berdache”. This was a man that didn’t want to go on raids or marry a woman. They took the role of a woman, but not sexualy. They cooked, cleaned, put up/took down the teepee, etc.
We as Americans need to realize that just becuase a kid doesn’t like sports, and hangs out with girls we don’t have to lead him to think he has to have sex with men. We don’t have to ostracize them so they feel the need to join the gay social and political movement for acceptance. We don’t need to encourage them to accept their gayness. They are just feminine men, and that’s OK. It is a dissorder to be gay. It is a sin to act upon it. It is normal for some men to be feminine.
Homosexuality is a unique disorder though, it is psychological, it does not harm one. What exactly is it that makes homosexuality such a sin? Other than religion, is there any reason for the agressive condemning of homosexuality?

When looking at teaching, I can understand murder is wrong, as it is taking away anothers life etc. Is there any reason for us to be so negative about homosexuality, other than the fact that God has an issue with it? Are there any practical reasons?
 
When looking at teaching, I can understand murder is wrong, as it is taking away anothers life etc. Is there any reason for us to be so negative about homosexuality, other than the fact that God has an issue with it? Are there any practical reasons?
on the surface, this appears true, as long as it is between two consenting adults. but, we can say that it is unatural and for most, gives people the creeps. i don’t think many people enjoy seeing two men a sexual embrace. so on a very superfical level, our consciences should tell us something is arwy, even if it isn’t immediatley that clear.

but ultimately, you have to understand man in terms of God creating us as male and female and not male and male. our bodies and sexuality express who we are and why we are. if we recognize creation as a gift, or that we didn’t create ourselves or the universe, we can see that only in mutual donation of selfs, completely, especially manifested in the congical act, we are living out reality in harmony with the created universe. we see that through living out this reality, we also procreate life, as God’s act in creation is life giving.

therefore homosexuality is definitively not life-giving or unitive for that very fact, and at odds with God plan of how we are to love one another.
 
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TheRaiders:
If you still don’t believe me this is a posibility know his: Liberals refused to accept the possibliity that women would make up sexual harassment cases until all those women started accusing Bill Clinton.
The difference is that these accusations have a whole lot of substance and the accussed has a widely reported background of womanizing, often aggressively.
 
Homosexuality leads to depression and many other things for the majority of them. It is sad but true. Other than that, I think it is clear that it also leads to an increased chance in molesting under-aged boys.
True, the majority of the molestation cases nationwide are from heterosexual men molesting girls. That said, this isn’t the case in the priesthood. It is boys past puberty that are the majority of the alleged victims. Why? Because an amount of priests dissproportionate with the rest of society are gay. Look at their dates of ordination and you’ll find a vast majority were ordained in the late 60’s and were first accused in the 70’s. The Jay study is clear on that. Let’s look, as thinking people, what happened in that era that was different from all other times. Well, they used psychological tests to screen priests. They relied completely upon these tests. All of psychology stopped testing for homosexuality in that era. They began encouraging acceptance of it as a lifestyle, not a dissorder. Some even began classifying it, as they try to do today, as a minority group equal to that of a race. Coincidence? Nope. The Church’s secrecy in these cases was bad. They were in denial, true, and didn’t do nearly enough for the victims. But lets give them some credit. They did something society at large has not been able to do: dramaticly cut the amount of molestations. The numbers show that they began curbing molestation cases after the peak in the 1970s. The problem was being solved before the general public even knew it was a huge problem. Lets not forget most of the cases we are hearing about now are at least 20 years old.
 
but ultimately, you have to understand man in terms of God creating us as male and female and not male and male. our bodies and sexuality express who we are and why we are. if we recognize creation as a gift, or that we didn’t create ourselves or the universe, we can see that only in mutual donation of selfs, completely, especially manifested in the congical act, we are living out reality in harmony with the created universe. we see that through living out this reality, we also procreate life, as God’s act in creation is life giving.
God still created homosexuals though, and he also allowed the processes that go on to make someone homosexual to occur, why would God do that?
Homosexuality leads to depression and many other things for the majority of them. It is sad but true. Other than that, I think it is clear that it also leads to an increased chance in molesting under-aged boys.
Do you not think that the opression, bullying, having to lie and homophobia have something to do with the depression.

Dont suppose anyone has any good website links that discuss the matter without bias or an agenda?
 
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Libero:
God still created homosexuals though, and he also allowed the processes that go on to make someone homosexual to occur, why would God do that?
Free will. God loves His creatures (humans) so much that He allows us to choose Him or reject Him. If He only allowed us to choose Him then we would have no ability to do anything on our own, including love. Many have chosen sin. Many are affected by choices of sin. Many that have a homosexual orientation may be products of their own sin or they may have been affected by other sins in their enviroment. Fortunately, the most loving God has provided an answer to all of this. Offering up our sacrifice (the result of sin) and uniting it to the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ, God Himself, on the cross. In doing this, we severly lessen the effects of sin and help to save souls for eternity (which is over a trillion years longer than we live on this earth). Giving into sin and the dominions of evil is not what God created us for.

I would also make note that God no more creates homosexuals than he creates alcoholics. God creates male and female. Male and female take it from there. God is always there when we decide to make the right choices. Always.
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Libero:
Do you not think that the opression, bullying, having to lie and homophobia have something to do with the depression.
Perhaps the perception of these things leads to depression. But actual reality is a different story - this is a further indication that th e mental state of someone that acts out on homosexual acts is something that can benefit from psychological and spiritual therapy. If the left spoke less of opression, bullying, and “homophobia” and stuck with the actual facts of what happened and when, many would feel much less oppressed.
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Libero:
Dont suppose anyone has any good website links that discuss the matter without bias or an agenda?
Not sure exactly what you are looking for. I would suggest that some think that those with a Christian worldview have a bias or agenda. I say they are living in the real world.
 
What Brad says is true. Many in mainstream America (at least where I live in California) would consider my views on homosexuality “oppresive”, just because I consider what they are doing as wrong for them, wrong for society, wrong in the eyes of the Church, and wrong in the eyes of God.
But I do not hate them. I try to love them as Jesus told us to do for everyone. To promote what they are doing and talk about relativism (“whatever makes someone happy”) is the oppresive thing to do because there is nothing more oppresive than sin. I’ll search for some Web sites
 
Usually a sexual devient will invest time in grooming a victim. This greatly reduces the risk of getting caught. This situation had a high risk of getting caught. This gives me the impression that it was a set up.
 
Many are affected by choices of sin. Many that have a homosexual orientation may be products of their own sin or they may have been affected by other sins in their enviroment.
Do you believe that homosexuality is a choice? Despite the growing medical proof that it is due to genetical factors and hormonal processes that the human cannot control?
I would also make note that God no more creates homosexuals than he creates alcoholics. God creates male and female. Male and female take it from there. God is always there when we decide to make the right choices. Always.
Alcoholism and homosexuality are two very different things.
Perhaps the perception of these things leads to depression. But actual reality is a different story - this is a further indication that th e mental state of someone that acts out on homosexual acts is something that can benefit from psychological and spiritual therapy.
Is this fact though? Homosexuals are rarely “cured” looking at the frequently praised NARTH and the testimonials on that, there are very few in which someone actually claims to be “perfectly normal” due to the therapy.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for. I would suggest that some think that those with a Christian worldview have a bias or agenda. I say they are living in the real world.
I was thinking university research, but it is highly likely that that would be biased as well come to think of it.
What Brad says is true. Many in mainstream America (at least where I live in California) would consider my views on homosexuality “oppresive”, just because I consider what they are doing as wrong for them, wrong for society, wrong in the eyes of the Church, and wrong in the eyes of God.
But that is the point, is what the gays are doing really harming society, or is that just generalising? Does condemning homosexuality to a society that no longer really believes Gods message acheive anything, or is it just detrimental to the image of the church. I remember reading a statement from one of the people present at the first homosexual civil unions in Belfast, when talking about the protests from Christians, they said

“they do not support the image of a loving church - we all know that should they try to protest in this silly manner in Manchester or London they would be laughed off the street.”

To many people the actions of the church don’t seem to be out of love for the sinner, but rather out of hate for the orientation.
 
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Libero:
To many people the actions of the church don’t seem to be out of love for the sinner, but rather out of hate for the orientation.
Maybe these people need an explanation (or a better explanation) of why the Church’s position is what it is. Homosexuality, especially the notion of “gay marriage” does hurt society…there was a great editorial in the National Cathlic Register on this a few years back…Whether it is a choice or an acquired disorder, it will never be a benefit to society.

BUT: this post was about an alleged crime by a priest. Again, if he is found guilty, I would request the original poster to inform us. Likewise, if he is found innocent, he deserves a retraction here as well…
 
I agree Libero. Its the same thing with abortion. Unless someone accepts there is a God, you can’t convince them of certain things. For instance, if you don’t consider a child as coming from God as a gift to mankind, then killing the baby seems like a utilitarian possibility, or even a right. Sometimes faith comes first.
But if you could convince people that homosexuality leads to a bad life here on earth, then that is easier than telling them about life after death if they refuse to believe in it. You could tell them about how it leads to depression, sexual deviancy and many other things. There have been studies. You could also let them know about STD’s and other things. I know all these things happen to straight folks too, but not at nearly high a rate. It is a compassionate thing to love them and help them change themselves.
As with abortion, God gave us some reasons to use even to convince atheists so that they do not commit horrible crimes.
Is homosexuality harmful to society? Well, you could say that any sin is harmful to society and incurs the wrath of God unless our prayers and his boundless compassion stays HIs hand. But as far as harming society, I would say that they are way more likely to be pedaphiles. Molesting young to teenage boys is harmful to society.
 
The American Journal of Public Health has published a detailed study of battering victimization in the male homosexual community (December 2002, Vol. 92, No. 12). The probability-based sampling of “men who have sex with men” (MSM) focused on four geographical areas (San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York) and resulted in 2,881 completed telephone interviews.

Based on these responses, this first-of-its-kind study determined that the rate of battering victimization among gay men in the target group (men over 18 who had engaged in homosexual activity since age 14, or who identified as gay, homosexual, or bisexual) is “substantially higher than among heterosexual men” and also possibly higher than the rate for heterosexual women, according to the study.
 
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snoopy:
Because some cowardly bishop couldn’t turn over a pedophile to the police? What do you think my friend’s live was worth. Nothing evidently to some of the superiors. They were more concerned about avoiding scandal than protecting children.
I have really been struggling with this aspect of the abuse scandal. Many of the bishops do not seem to understand that this ‘cover-up’ is at the crux of the matter. I just do not think they have exhibited true remorse.

And what responsibilities do we as the laity have in these matters? I think more than we have accepted so far. I know I should pray about this but I also feel drawn to do something… I have looked at the websites of groups like Voice of the Faithful and just am not sure that is the way to go. Maybe they are really faithful to the Church and maybe not, I do not have the deapth of knowledge to really know. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
 
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kvance:
I have really been struggling with this aspect of the abuse scandal. Many of the bishops do not seem to understand that this ‘cover-up’ is at the crux of the matter. I just do not think they have exhibited true remorse.

And what responsibilities do we as the laity have in these matters? I think more than we have accepted so far. I know I should pray about this but I also feel drawn to do something… I have looked at the websites of groups like Voice of the Faithful and just am not sure that is the way to go. Maybe they are really faithful to the Church and maybe not, I do not have the deapth of knowledge to really know. Any suggestions would be welcomed.
Voice of the Faithful is NOT an orthodox group; unfortunately, the bishops gave them the perfect opening by failing us in their responsibility. Instead of acting like shepherds, they’ve treating sexual abuse by their priests (and in some cases, themselves) like an audit point…develop a procedure,“train” them and hope it goes away. That’s why we’ve all had to sit through ridiculous VIRTUS training which doesn’t even acknowledge the sex abuse in the church was largely homosexual…Meanwhile, many dioces es are bleeding $$$ from all the lawsuits and the lawyers want more…Where is this $$ coming from? Eventually, all of the innocent will suffer, not just the abuse victims as more dioceses are bankrupted and parishes are closed, churches sold. They are still being terribly inept in how this is being addressed and some of them seem a bit off the mark in how they are interpreting the Vatican instruction on seminarians…
 
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