Priest and the collar

[JerrySeibert]

Here is a situation. Someone you know or someone in your proximity grabs there chest as if having a heart attack. You ask for someone to dial 911.
A man or woman approaches and says, “I’m a Doctor” do you ask for credentials? NO! You are grateful that someone well qualified could potentially help the poor soul.

Now let’s some man approached and said, "I’m a Priest and I can give this person a blessing or give the annointing of the sick ( As my understanding this is what was refered to as Last Rites). Again, would you ask for his credentials or collar.
Now, if that Priest were in blue jeans does that make his annointing invalid? I don’t think so. My Priest in a homily spoke of giving ‘last rites’ to a young man who was mortally injured in a car wreck while he was on vacation. Think of the timing, three states away, put on jeans and a t shirt to go see your cousin or clericals, which take longer as it’s a suit. And to be there three cars back and see a crash. And be there to help cleanse someones soul before they meet God. He would have been to late if he had to iron his shirt before leaving. You get me? My Priest is still a Priest wether he is in clericals or sweat pants.
Maybe I am just blessed because I have such an awesome example to follow. But his suit does not make me want to be a better person. He does by his example, by the way he challenges me to be better. Not because of his collar.

 

[Maureen1125]

Just because I am tired of fighting over this - you can only go to confession in the church/confessional - ****…

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.shtml
1464 - Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

In addition, I e-mailed a local priest and this is what I was told.

Me: On catholic.com there is a debate about “where” you can have your confession heard. Several people are saying the “rule” is that confessions MUST be heard inside the church/chapel or in an Oratory.

I have made confessions in many different places and the confessional is usually not one of them…that room gives me the worst anxiety attacks. Although I will say that the rooms at St. Mike’s are nicer then most.

So, is there a actual “rule” about where confessions should be heard? .

Fr. Jim: Hi Maureen,
Confessions are “normally” heard in a church reconciliation room / confessional, but also frequently in an office or parlor, at home, in the hospital … essentially anywhere there is a priest and penitent meeting that insures at least some privacy. So your friends online are mistaken in their idea that a confession must always be heard in a church/chapel/oratory. Now, the celebration of marriage is a different matter…
God bless,
Fr. Jim .

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Just because I am tired of fighting over this - you can only go to confession in the church/confessional - ****…

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.shtml
1464 - Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

In addition, I e-mailed a local priest and this is what I was told.

Me: On catholic.com there is a debate about “where” you can have your confession heard. Several people are saying the “rule” is that confessions MUST be heard inside the church/chapel or in an Oratory.

I have made confessions in many different places and the confessional is usually not one of them…that room gives me the worst anxiety attacks. Although I will say that the rooms at St. Mike’s are nicer then most.

So, is there a actual “rule” about where confessions should be heard? .

Fr. Jim: Hi Maureen,
Confessions are “normally” heard in a church reconciliation room / confessional, but also frequently in an office or parlor, at home, in the hospital … essentially anywhere there is a priest and penitent meeting that insures at least some privacy. So your friends online are mistaken in their idea that a confession must always be heard in a church/chapel/oratory. Now, the celebration of marriage is a different matter…
God bless,
Fr. Jim .

Yes, there is a rule. It is found within the Code of Canon Law.

Can. 964 §1 The proper place for hearing sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

§2 As far as the confessional is concerned, norms are to be issued by the Episcopal Conference, with the proviso however that confessionals, which the faithful who so wish may freely use, are located in an open place, and fitted with a fixed grille between the penitent and the confessor.

§3 Except for a just reason, confessions are not to be heard elsewhere than in a confessional.

As you can see by this Canon, confession must take place in a church or oratory and the norm is for them to be done in a confessional “except for just reason”.

A high level of anxiety is a just reason to hold it out side of the confessional but it should still be done in the church.

My question is this, people get all upset, and rightly so, about abuses of the Mass, but why do they not get just as upset with the abuse of the Sacrament of Penance when this Canon is not followed?

I am sorry to say this but Fr Jim is mistaken and I would point this Canon out to him and then see what he has to say.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

so if you can’t see the collar, he is just some freak in a dress?

 

[FrCorey]

can you imagine the confusion in san francisco?
oooh, Father, you look absulutly fabulous!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

can you imagine the confusion in san francisco?
oooh, Father, you look absulutly fabulous!

Especially on the third weekend of Advent…Rose looks FAB_ulous on your Father

 

[dans0622]

…As you can see by this Canon, confession must take place in a church or oratory and the norm is for them to be done in a confessional “except for just reason”.

…

My question is this, people get all upset, and rightly so, about abuses of the Mass, but why do they not get just as upset with the abuse of the Sacrament of Penance when this Canon is not followed?

Hello Brother,

If a confession is heard outside of a confessional and there is a just cause, the canon is followed and there is no abuse of anything. A “just cause” (iusta de causa) is a very low threshold; a canon law professor of mine once said you might as well translate it “just because.” I imagine the threshold is so low because the Church wants people to receive this Sacrament and does not want this issue to be a serious obstacle.

Dan

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hello Brother,

If a confession is heard outside of a confessional and there is a just cause, the canon is followed and there is no abuse of anything. A “just cause” (iusta de causa) is a very low threshold; a canon law professor of mine once said you might as well translate it “just because.” I imagine the threshold is so low because the Church wants people to receive this Sacrament and does not want this issue to be a serious obstacle.

Dan

Wanting to have my confession heard just becuase I see a priest is not a just cause.

I would be interested to see the heirarchy of reasons, just cause, just reason, and such as they are used in canon law and which have the higher threshold.

But again, laziness and not wanting to make time for confession in a Church is not “just cause” to stop a priest in public and ask for confession.

I guess, after a quick look at Canon Law it might go like this.

Just Cause (ex. place of Confession)
Just and Reasonable Cause (ex. place of Confirmation)
Case of Necessity (ex. place of Baptism)

But as IMHO “becuase I want to” for me does not make a “just cause”.

Yet my reply stands as the poster implied, as did the priest who she spoke with. that the Church has no rule as to where the Sacrament of Penance should occur, which is false.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

A “just cause” (iusta de causa) is a very low threshold; a canon law professor of mine once said you might as well translate it “just because.”

I’d hesitate to interpret “just cause” as “just because.” Otherwise the canon would have read, “the sacrament of confession can be heard anywhere at anytime for any reason.” However it does try to set some sort of standard.

I imagine the threshold is so low because the Church wants people to receive this Sacrament and does not want this issue to be a serious obstacle.

I agree with Brother that simply bumping into a priest is not a just cause.

 

[Maureen1125]

If the Canon Law is so clear then WHY would the USCCB state that

Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

basically if a Priest MUST make himself available…then that means if I see him at McDonald’s and ask, then he MUST allow it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If the Canon Law is so clear then WHY would the USCCB state that

Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

The USCCB is not binding and you quote is from the Catechism, specifically paragraph 1464, please properly cite Church documents so that we can look them up and read them in context.

I would also add that you leave out the “each time a Christian reasonably ask for it”. I would say that seeing a priest at McDonald’s and asking for confession is not “reasonably asking for it”, it is demanding that the priest drop what he is doing and do what you want of him, very unreasonable. Again, why have the code in Canon Law if it is not to be followed?

This paragraph from the Catechism also references the Code of Canon Law, specifically Canon 986, which says…
Can. 986 §1 All to whom by virtue of office the care of souls is committed, are bound to provide for the hearing of the confessions of the faithful entrusted to them, who reasonably request confession, and they are to provide these faithful with an opportunity to make individual confession on days and at times arranged to suit them.

§2 In an urgent necessity, every confessor is bound to hear the confessions of Christ’s faithful, and in danger of death every priest is so obliged.

This canon, nor does the catechism paragraph, support the idea that just because you see a priest and want confession that the priest must hear it.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

If the Canon Law is so clear then WHY would the USCCB state that “Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.”

That’s simply to avoid a priest saying to someone, “come back during regular confession times.” A confession can be heard in the Church by appointment or at a reasonable opportunity. It says nothing about “must celebrate the sacrament anywhere at any time for any reason.”

basically if a Priest MUST make himself available…then that means if I see him at McDonald’s and ask, then he MUST allow it.

Note that it says “each time Christians reasonably ask for it.” When we combine canon law with the directive from the USCCB, we don’t arrive at a conclusion that confession must be heard in the McDonald’s bathroom stalls if requested.

 

[dans0622]

Wanting to have my confession heard just becuase I see a priest is not a just cause.
…
But again, laziness and not wanting to make time for confession in a Church is not “just cause” to stop a priest in public and ask for confession.
…
But as IMHO “becuase I want to” for me does not make a “just cause”.

Yet my reply stands as the poster implied, as did the priest who she spoke with. that the Church has no rule as to where the Sacrament of Penance should occur, which is false.

The simple desire to confess, or the simple fact of bumping into a priest, is not the just cause. The just cause would be that a person is in a state of mortal sin or is so troubled by venial sin that he/she wants to receive the grace of the Sacrament and, if necessary, be reconciled to God and to the Church. Such a person should see to his/her reconciliation as soon as possible, even if it occurs outside of a confessional. I wouldn’t call this laziness. I would call it the grace of God calling a child back.

If a person did this regularly, there might be other issues. But, I don’t know of a person who often seeks out priests in public places, accosts them, and demands absolution. (I don’t know many people, admittedly.)

Thanks for your time (and for your response to God’s call, by the way).

Dan

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The simple desire to confess, or the simple fact of bumping into a priest, is not the just cause. The just cause would be that a person is in a state of mortal sin or is so troubled by venial sin that he/she wants to receive the grace of the Sacrament and, if necessary, be reconciled to God and to the Church. Such a person should see to his/her reconciliation as soon as possible, even if it occurs outside of a confessional. I wouldn’t call this laziness. I would call it the grace of God calling a child back.

If a person did this regularly, there might be other issues. But, I don’t know of a person who often seeks out priests in public places, accosts them, and demands absolution. (I don’t know many people, admittedly.)

Thanks for your time (and for your response to God’s call, by the way).

Dan

Venial sin would not be a “just cause” becuase it is not necessary to have the Sacrament of Penance to be forgiven of such.

If one has a mortal sin and it is so troubling then they should call the parish and schedule an appointment for confession not hope that they “accidentally” run in to a priest while out and about. If it is not “troubling” enough to schedule an appointment then it is not “troubling” enough to demand that the Sacrament be celebrated outside of what the Canons allow for.

 

[brina1416]

Yes, there is a rule. It is found within the Code of Canon Law.

Can. 964 §1 The proper place for hearing sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

§2 As far as the confessional is concerned, norms are to be issued by the Episcopal Conference, with the proviso however that confessionals, which the faithful who so wish may freely use, are located in an open place, and fitted with a fixed grille between the penitent and the confessor.

§3 Except for a just reason, confessions are not to be heard elsewhere than in a confessional.
As you can see by this Canon, confession must take place in a church or oratory and the norm is for them to be done in a confessional “except for just reason”.

A high level of anxiety is a just reason to hold it out side of the confessional but it should still be done in the church.

My question is this, people get all upset, and rightly so, about abuses of the Mass, but why do they not get just as upset with the abuse of the Sacrament of Penance when this Canon is not followed?

I am sorry to say this but Fr Jim is mistaken and I would point this Canon out to him and then see what he has to say.

I’ve never been to confession inside of a confessional. I don’t have a “just cause” other than I just have a preference not to be in there. It’s always been in their office or another room in the church. To be honest I didn’t think the “where” was so important just as long as go. I perfer talking with a priest face to face with no barriers involved because it’s more comfortable that way, at least for me and a few other people I know. So should I be worried that my confessions aren’t valid if they haven’t been in a confessional?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yes, there is a rule. It is found within the Code of Canon Law.

Can. 964 §1 The proper place for hearing sacramental confessions is a church or oratory.

§2 As far as the confessional is concerned, norms are to be issued by the Episcopal Conference, with the proviso however that confessionals, which the faithful who so wish may freely use, are located in an open place, and fitted with a fixed grille between the penitent and the confessor.

§3 Except for a just reason, confessions are not to be heard elsewhere than in a confessional.
As you can see by this Canon, confession must take place in a church or oratory and the norm is for them to be done in a confessional “except for just reason”.

A high level of anxiety is a just reason to hold it out side of the confessional but it should still be done in the church.

My question is this, people get all upset, and rightly so, about abuses of the Mass, but why do they not get just as upset with the abuse of the Sacrament of Penance when this Canon is not followed?

I am sorry to say this but Fr Jim is mistaken and I would point this Canon out to him and then see what he has to say.

I’ve never been to confession inside of a confessional. I don’t have a “just cause” other than I just have a preference not to be in there. It’s always been in their office or another room in the church. To be honest I didn’t think the “where” was so important just as long as go. I perfer talking with a priest face to face with no barriers involved because it’s more comfortable that way, at least for me and a few other people I know. So should I be worried that my confessions aren’t valid if they haven’t been in a confessional?

Preference for face to face confession is a just cause if your confessionals are not set up to allow this.

 

[dans0622]

…If one has a mortal sin and it is so troubling then they should call the parish and schedule an appointment for confession not hope that they “accidentally” run in to a priest while out and about. If it is not “troubling” enough to schedule an appointment then it is not “troubling” enough to demand that the Sacrament be celebrated outside of what the Canons allow for.

The grace of God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps it is the sight of the priest that is the cause of that grace becoming effective. Anyway, if a priest is out and about in clerics, he is basically saying “I’m available.”

Dan

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The grace of God works in mysterious ways. Perhaps it is the sight of the priest that is the cause of that grace becoming effective. Anyway, if a priest is out and about in clerics, he is basically saying “I’m available.”

Dan

I know I am only a brother but when I am out in my habit or clerics I am not always saying that. I, as well as a priest, might be on our way to an appointment and do not have time to stop for a talk or what ever else a person might want.

Some people have the idea that we are at their beck and call and when we ignore their wants they get mad. It just may be that there is something else more important, like for a priest, a Mass he is traveling to, or a confession time he is headed to, or (for both of us) a talk he is to give, or some other schedule function.

 

[FrCorey]

but I can also see the other side of the coin too. did you ever try to eat in a public place and your food gets cold because everyone wants blessings or to chat? or like brother said, what if you are on your way to another function, a wedding or a funeral or the hospital. would those people like to wait around for you?

 

[PJM]

=JerrySeibert;7576966]Collar, when performing functions of the ‘office’. But, everyone needs ‘their’ time. My Priest is always in clericals in and around the Parish but outside of there. He is in his regular clothes.
What does it matter? He is a man of God. Very commited to his Parish and his people and I know he would be there for any of his people.

This seems like a difficult call because we naturally tend to compare there “job” with ours; and that is not IMO God’s intent. They work EXTREMELY LONG hours; BUT ALWAYS represent “servant of God”, The CC, and the Parish. IMO they therefore ought [as I understand Canon Law directs] stay dresses with colar; EXCEPT, at there choice; there day off.

I have known several Priest who didn’t take a day off… That’s a Blessing an God shall reward them; But I agre a BREAK in beneficianl for all.

God Bless,
Pat