Priest beaten up in front of his mother for celebrating the Traditional Mass

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I’m not pitting anything against anyone, all I’m saying if the roles would be reversed people wouldn’t be slamming, they’d be praising…
I hope you understood my point that we can’t reverse the roles. The rubrics of the liturgy do not allow. It’s a bad conclusion to make because the same rules do not apply. I understand however what you are trying to say, it’s just not the best example to use especially when if someone who wished to receive COTT in the OF and was denied…they can and should make a big fuss about it!
 
However, is he likely to accomplish that by running roughshod over his parishioners and not taking their feelings and desires into account? The answer is no. Feeling ignored and marginalized is precisely the thing that irritates those who desire the EF.
I suppose they could set up a Vernacular Mass Society and travel long distances to the nearest OF, if they feel slighted by their local priest for wanting CITH, versus populum, folk hymns and to be EMHCs.
 
‘Riding roughshold over his parishioners’? Hmmm, let me bask in imagining a priest nowadays who would come out to bat for the TLM in that way.

I think the TLM solves a lot of problems for priests: it silences the more dominant personalities in the congregation, lets him face the object of worship and get on with this job, while freeing up time previouly spent marshalling EMHCs and lay lectors.

He might even get some altar boys and possible future vocations, thereby. We can dream!
 
The pastor is the parochial authority responsible for the spiritual well being of the faithfuls. He is not a democratic representative of a group. Just because the Church says that some things are acceptable it is erroneous to assume that the Church says that they are equal. Who is being arrogant, the priest or the parishoners? I would never go to my priest and tell him what to do unless what he is doing is clearly against the dictates of the Church. Sometime I would share my preferences, but I would not consider my pastor obliged to accept them.
This is entirely the right sentiment.

Chastity, Humility, and Obedience are virtues for all Christians, not just those in religious orders.

I couldn’t agree with you more.
 
I doubt there was a need back then to spell out everything that is not allowed, like now days seems to be the case. In fact I hear people on these forums often state if it isn’t spelled out as strictly forbidden, then it is allowed. The GIRM would be the largest book in the world if that was the case.
 
I doubt there was a need back then to spell out everything that is not allowed, like now days seems to be the case. In fact I hear people on these forums often state if it isn’t spelled out as strictly forbidden, then it is allowed. The GIRM would be the largest book in the world if that was the case.
Indeed. Americans, I think, like legal codes with everything laid out as a set of black-and-white rules, though that has never really been the Roman way of doing things. People are simply expected to exercise good judgment; and if something becomes enough of a problem, then a rule will be made in necessary.

Of course, when people don’t understand this, it presents difficulties. For instance, with the orans position during the Our Father – one side says “It is not prescribed in the rubrics,” the other side says “But no posture is prescribed in the rubrics, so if being unprescribed made a posture forbidden as you say, then the folded hands posture would be forbidden as well.” The first side rejoins, “And if you were right, then doing jumping jacks would also be permitted, because no one has gotten around to banning it yet.” As I say, that’s not the way Rome works, which means that these discussions can rarely be solved by reference to some legalistic formula like “whatever is not expressly forbidden is allowed” or vice versa.

Thus, whether or not something is “in the rubrics” is an important starting point for the discussion, but usually not an ending point. The fact that, as you say, COTT and the the kneeling posture are not in the rubrics of the 1962 form is an important fact to be aware of, even though it does not close the book on the topic. It is also relevant, inter alia, to questions of whether contrary practices are “indults” (reprieves from a law), which for some reason is a legalistic shibboleth of great importance to certain people.
 
Where are those rubrics located?
I don’t know if there are specific rubrics (I said rubrics but I meant a ruling of some sort) but the EF is understood to have communion while kneeling and on the tongue, hence communion rails with kneelers. An innovation like CITH at the EF is not welcomed, there is a reason why it is treated differently and exempt from some practices that are common place in the OF.

Our approach should be if it’s not said it should not done NOT if it’s not said, it can be done.
 
The OP, the example Denise gave. Both are rather extreme examples. Obviously not everyone who receives COTH is like this, but why else say the stories unless you’re trying to prove a point of some kind?
But what if the point is merely that it is too bad that some people carry such things so far…and we should practice more charity towards each other and pray for those who let pride and anger get the best of them…

You see, the point of relaying a story such as that in the OP, can be for other than partisan reasons…

Peace
James
 
I’m so disappointed that instead of focusing on this priest that was assaulted and how wrong it is to assault any priest this thread like so many others here has devolved into religious politics over the EF and OF.
 
Where are those rubrics located?
Hi Mark,

I know you know a lot more than I know and could demolish me in a heartbeat… 😃

Nevertheless,

I found this in the guide for altar servers on the Sancta Missa site.
Receive our Blessed Lord reverently, holding the communion patten (plate) under your chin. Then rise immediately and accompany the Priest to the first Communicant on the Epistle-side end of the rails. (Or, if there are no rails, wherever the communicants are kneeling). Precede the Priest along the line of communicants, holding the plate under each chin. Should a Host drop onto the plate, do not panic: this is what the plate is there for. Simply let the Priest remove the Host, and then continue along the line; the Priest will remove any fragments later, but you must be very careful not to let any fall to the ground.
sanctamissa.org/en/serving/how-to-serve-the-latin-mass-02.html
Emphasis mine.

I can’t attest to the authority of the Sancta Missa site, but there you have it.
 
Hi Mark,

I know you know a lot more than I know and could demolish me in a heartbeat… 😃
I wouldn’t dream of it! 🙂
Nevertheless,
I found this in the guide for altar servers on the Sancta Missa site.
Emphasis mine.
I can’t attest to the authority of the Sancta Missa site, but there you have it.
What I would be interested in is some sort of original source from the Church. To put it in modern terms, something from the GIRM, not the notes to the order of Mass in an OCP missalette.
I don’t know if there are specific rubrics (I said rubrics but I meant a ruling of some sort) but the EF is understood to have communion while kneeling and on the tongue, hence communion rails with kneelers. An innovation like CITH at the EF is not welcomed, there is a reason why it is treated differently and exempt from some practices that are common place in the OF.

Our approach should be if it’s not said it should not done NOT if it’s not said, it can be done.
But you’re saying two contradictory things: “the EF is understood to have communion while kneeling and on the tongue,” but “if it’s not said,] it should not done.”
 
I recall that after SP was introduced four years ago, a parish in a small town in my state decided to add an EF Mass on Sunday, in addition to the usual OF. Well, at the very first EF Mass there, a male parishioner went up to the communion rail and stood there, not kneeling, and put out his hand for communion. Well, the priest just passed him by, ignoring him and not giving him communion. After the priest passed him by, the man became beligerent and started yelling that he wasn’t given communion. Well, a couple of other parishioners escorted him out. The priest did the right thing by passing him by. But this situation shows how opposed some are to COTT, and how they will do extreme things to show their disfavor.
Actually, this is another example of two things happening that should not happen.
  1. The priest handled the situation poorly. Anyone who has been through the seminary knows that we never assume that people know what to do when something is new. The EF is new to most Catholics. There are other options here. The priest can simply ask the person to kneel and put out his tongue. If he feels that this may be distracting, he can proceed to give him communion in the hand and say, “See me after mass.” Then you explain the rules. This happens all the time to people who travel to different places. They may go to another diocese or may enter mass at a religious house that uses another form. They simply don’t know that they must do something like kneel. The person may be thinking that he has a choice here as well. Walking past the person without saying a word is poor pastoral practice.
I remember a case where a young man attended mass at our novitiate. During the Eucharistic prayer he stayed at his seat. I believe he knelt. This was several years ago. In any case, the brothers were all standing around the altar, as has been our custom for conventual masses for 800 years. After the mass, one of the novices asked him why he did not join the brothers. He said that he did not know that he was allowed to do so. He was used to the OF where people stay put. We all felt badly, because no one signaled him to join us. We just assumed that because we knew the appropriate thing to do, everyone who entered our chapel knew. Wrong assumption!
  1. That being said, the man was completely out of order. If I’m understanding this, to have to be escorted out, you must really be making a scene, not just mumbling under your breadth. What the man did was escalate the situation instead of help it. I’m sure that Father never expected this reaction either. The angry man may not have been well wrapped. Even when you don’t know what to do, you may be chagrined for a moment, but you don’t cause such a scene that you are booted out.
I was not there, so I don’t know. If the priest had said, “Please kneel,” and the man had refused, then the priest has to make a judgment call as to whether the man is properly disposed for Holy Communion. He may not be a Catholic, for all the priest knows. At least the priest took some pastoral step in the right direction. The rule, when giving out Holy Communion is that you never deny anyone Holy Communion, unless you have a reason to believe that there is something wrong (not a Catholic, a public sinner whom the bishop has asked not to receive, a child that is too young to have made his Holy Communion, drinking, etc).

However, I close with the same comment as I did in the Italian case. The fact that the priest was not quick on his feet is no justification for such behavior. People need to learn that we don’t throw tantrums and become verbally and physically aggressive, because we don’t get what we want. Unfortunately, we’re living in a world that teaches entitlement. Entitlement is a slippery slope. When people are not well wrapped and they feel entitled, beware.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
  1. The priest handled the situation poorly. Anyone who has been through the seminary knows that we never assume that people know what to do when something is new. The EF is new to most Catholics. There are other options here. The priest can simply ask the person to kneel and put out his tongue. If he feels that this may be distracting, he can proceed to give him communion in the hand and say, “See me after mass.” Then you explain the rules. This happens all the time to people who travel to different places. They may go to another diocese or may enter mass at a religious house that uses another form. They simply don’t know that they must do something like kneel. The person may be thinking that he has a choice here as well. Walking past the person without saying a word is poor pastoral practice.
I don’t know, I’ve been to both EF and OF masses in 3 different states and even though the line up for receiving is different at each parish I just follow along with what everyone else is doing. The norm at my parish now is to receive kneeling and on the tongue and only the body of Christ is given out normally. Except when the Bishop came for confirmations and had his own EMHC ( which our parish does not use ) and the line up was totally different, both species were offered. Somehow we all figured out what to do and no one got belligerent or attacked a priest.
 


But you’re saying two contradictory things: “the EF is understood to have communion while kneeling and on the tongue,” but “if it’s not said,] it should not done.”
There’s no contradiction…just following tradition. But I agree with Cider this should be about the Priest. Traditions of the Church should not be met with such hostility even if the method of “imposing” is not the best of ways.
 
I hope the Priest becomes even more galvanized in his ways now. Whiny liberals(heterodox) can’t handle the path the Church is heading. I love it. I spend long hours reading the whiny comments at ncr because it makes me happy. Whenever I read about something the Church is doing wrong from that rag, I know things are heading in the right direction. Keep it up Pope Benedict, I am strongly behind you.
👍👍👍

Me To!

Prayers for for all envolved in this.

God bless

jesus g
 
I don’t know, I’ve been to both EF and OF masses in 3 different states and even though the line up for receiving is different at each parish I just follow along with what everyone else is doing. The norm at my parish now is to receive kneeling and on the tongue and only the body of Christ is given out normally. Except when the Bishop came for confirmations and had his own EMHC ( which our parish does not use ) and the line up was totally different, both species were offered. Somehow we all figured out what to do and no one got belligerent or attacked a priest.
Don’t get me wrong. As I said above, the man was waayyyyyyy out of order. You’re right. Most of us take our cue from the people around us. There are some people who don’t. There are also people who don’t always use common sense. They just want things their way.

I’m just saying what the priest is trained to do was not done. I don’t know if it would have produced a different outcome. The man may have not stayed around to hear what Father had to say or he may still have bitten his head off. The rule of thumb is that you do not walk past a communicant without saying something. Given a case like this one, you never know what’s going through the person’s head.

I have a very good friend who’s a Capuchin brother. He was celebrating mass when a man walked up to communion carrying a knife. He simply did what we were taught to do in seminary.

He looked at the man and very politely said, “You’ll have to excuse me for a moment.” He backed away and put the Eucharist in the tabernacle. The congregation realized that something was wrong. People were still waiting for Communion. They took care of the situation. There was a scuffle, anyway. But Brother tried to minimize it.

It doesn’t always work. You try what you have been taught.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Obviously, I’ve never been to seminary, but I figured when I saw this thread that priests most likely do get some education as to what to do when something out of the ordinary happens while distributing communion, even if it’s no more off-the-wall than some drunk stumbling into Mass and staggering up to receive the Eucharist. I’m sure such a scenario has happened on more than one occasion in the history of the Church!

Interpersonal violence is never justified, obviously. But I think a quick “Body of Christ–see me after Mass” would have helped here a lot.
 
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