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Valke2
Guest
Actually, for the sake of honesty, let’s call it 300,000 civilian casualties. I’ll err on the side of caution and assume 350,000 were hostiles. And I’ll add the futher disclaimer that the number is an estimate only.
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Valke2
Guest
History will tell.
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cestusdei
Guest
Valke, at the cost of how many American lives? Also the figures are inflated and false. Why aren’t you concerned about all the Iraqi’s Sadaam killed? Rather selective I think.
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Valke2
Guest
I’m not being selective. I’m merely stating that it is hypocritical to blame all violence on muslims while we are in the midst of an action that is resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Those numbers, by the way, are estimates of people who died as a result of the US invasion. Meaning that they are apparently above and beyond the numbers of people who would have died under Sadam?
But let’s crunch numbers. We’ve been there for what, 4 years? So 650,000 dead in that time (not including US soldiers that have died). How many people died under Saddam in the four years prior to that?
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cestusdei
Guest
There is a difference. We are a nation state. We are at war. A war we did not start. We follow the laws of war and punish those in our own forces who violate them. To equate us with terrorists is like equating our military and the SS in the concentration camps. We know Saddam killed hundreds of thousands. We have been digging up the bodies. If we had invaded them in the first gulf war many would not have died. So if anything we should have gone in years before we actually did.
I saw a commercial the other day demanding that Bush send in US troops to Dafur to save thousands of lives. Ironic. We do that in Iraq and people complain, but then say we should do it elsewhere.
What you do is like calling our guys “baby killers” after the Vietnam war. That is exactly what you are saying. So if you don’t mean that and would never say that to one of our soldiers then maybe you should reconsider. We are the good guys here and they are the bad guys. If you don’t agree then you and pro are very close and the terrorists are mightly pleased.
I saw a commercial the other day demanding that Bush send in US troops to Dafur to save thousands of lives. Ironic. We do that in Iraq and people complain, but then say we should do it elsewhere.
What you do is like calling our guys “baby killers” after the Vietnam war. That is exactly what you are saying. So if you don’t mean that and would never say that to one of our soldiers then maybe you should reconsider. We are the good guys here and they are the bad guys. If you don’t agree then you and pro are very close and the terrorists are mightly pleased.
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inJESUS
Guest
Amen.
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Valke2
Guest
A war we did not start? We absolutely started this war. Iraq is not Darfur. Sending troops into Darfur will not cause the nation to devolve into civil war. It will not take a nation that was modern and bomb it back to the stone age. And, if the IRaqi model is such a good idea, then why HASN’T the US gone into Darfur?
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pro_universal
Guest
This thread is simply beyond belief.
Under Saddam: Christians and minorities protected, women’s rights observed. Iraq was modern, secular, and trying to build itself up…certianly, Saddam’s evil political policies did not help this. But they were doing better than what’s going on now.
Under US occupation:
Scores dead every day. Complete mayhem. No basic electricity. A crony system for rebuilding…do you know that a 24 year old fresh college grad was given the task of rebuilding Iraq’s entire stock market!?
And numerous massacres, no matter what you say.
Haditha was an atrocity
The murder of an Iraqi civilian by some navy and other folks was an atrocity.
The rape of a 14 year old girl and the killing of her family were atrocities.
The torture at Abu Ghraib was an atrocity.
Yet, none of these things seem to tarnish the reputation of the United States to you. But everything that Muslims do tarnishes all of Islam.
Yeah, that’s reasonable.
Under Saddam: Christians and minorities protected, women’s rights observed. Iraq was modern, secular, and trying to build itself up…certianly, Saddam’s evil political policies did not help this. But they were doing better than what’s going on now.
Under US occupation:
Scores dead every day. Complete mayhem. No basic electricity. A crony system for rebuilding…do you know that a 24 year old fresh college grad was given the task of rebuilding Iraq’s entire stock market!?
And numerous massacres, no matter what you say.
Haditha was an atrocity
The murder of an Iraqi civilian by some navy and other folks was an atrocity.
The rape of a 14 year old girl and the killing of her family were atrocities.
The torture at Abu Ghraib was an atrocity.
Yet, none of these things seem to tarnish the reputation of the United States to you. But everything that Muslims do tarnishes all of Islam.
Yeah, that’s reasonable.
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cestusdei
Guest
Valke, The war on terror was started by the Muslims. Remember 911 and the events that preceded it? In Iraq they continually defied UN resolutions after being defeated for invading Kuwait. Terrorism is not just Osama. It includes nations like Iran. Why not invade Dafur? Well Sudan says it would fight and there is already a civil war there. Within months you would be complaining about our presence and demanding the troops come home. Just like in Somalia. The question is whether it is in our national interested to intervene there. Frankly taking out Sudan wouldn’t be a bad idea. I guess you are on board with it. So, despite the fact that there would be civilian casualties, there are some wars you want us to fight. Just not the one against our current enemies. I want us to fight in defense of our own interests first. Although I sympathize with your desire for a crusade.
pro, yes we know you loved Saddam and mourn the loss of his fine government. He was always such a kindly man. There is no violence any Muslim can commit that bothers you. Perhaps you should send him a letter telling him how you feel? He would appreciate that since he is on trial for gassing Kurds and massacring thousands of people. He was just kidding around when he butchered them. And the acid baths? Just a little jolly humor.
pro, yes we know you loved Saddam and mourn the loss of his fine government. He was always such a kindly man. There is no violence any Muslim can commit that bothers you. Perhaps you should send him a letter telling him how you feel? He would appreciate that since he is on trial for gassing Kurds and massacring thousands of people. He was just kidding around when he butchered them. And the acid baths? Just a little jolly humor.
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Valke2
Guest
I think you need to review recent history. I have no love for Sadam. But he was the dictator of a secular government. He did not have anything to do with 9/11, the sanctions that were in place were obviously effective. While it is true he continually defied the UN, that wasn’t why we invade Iraq and it wasn’t necessary to do so. It got us nothing but misery. And it got the people of Iraq nothing but misery.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
That’s actually a very good question which I don’t presently have a complete answer for within Iraq itself. I know that many Catholics would love to go into the nation of Iraq to assist with the suffering for non-evangelical reasons-- though I am unsure how effective this would be under these war-time conditions.
I am aware of works of mercy being conducted more safely along the Jordanian border however. Catholic Relief Services (CRS), in partnership with Caritas Jordan, trained a network of volunteers to work in two UNHCR-run refugee camps in Ruweishad, Jordan, along the border with Iraq.
This was done in the event of a massive refugee influx. And, to be honest, I am unsure exactly what came of this effort-- but something was done to alleviate the suffering nonetheless.
In addition to this, many organizations, both Christian and non-Christian, did provide other forms of emergency relief and reconstruction aid. This has been delivered to Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein in April of 2003 and has helped to rebuild the basic infrastructure (and tended to some of the immediate needs of the citizens who desperately needed humanitarian aid in the form of food, clean water and medical attention).
I’m fairly sure a google search would reveal more detailed information for anyone who is taking a serious look.
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cestusdei
Guest
Valke, the guys I know who went over there say the Iraqi’s don’t want us to leave. They hated Saddam, except for the ones he favored. I am sure after WWII there were Germans who hated to have lost and to have us occupy them. Your solution was to not fight and let Hitler do his worst. Yet, here you want us out of Iraq and into Dafur. Very strange. If the Iraqi’s would simply assist us and stop committing terrorism we would be out in a year and they would be much better off. They have a golden opportunity to become democratic and prosperous. If they blow it it will be their fault and evidence that Islam is incapable of producing a modern democracy. However, the Kurds seem to be doing very well. They love us. So there is some hope. But of course the Kurds aren’t gung ho fundamentalist muslims either. That bears thinking about. Let me say it again: USA=Good guys, Terrorists=Bad guys. If you don’t agree then buy a one way ticket out of the country. We’ll take a collection.
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pro_universal
Guest
I never thought I’d see so much denial.
Like I said, this is just beyond belief. The extreme disconnection from reality and the facts is ruining America.
God forbid that people like this keep making our policy.
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porkscratchings
Guest
Well said.
Those apologists for US expansionism will never see anything but the lies they have manufactured for public consumption…even when joe public has stopped believing in them.
i remember watching a documentary on the nazi invasion of the Czechoslovakia. The nazis quickly made films showing they were welcomed with open arms by Czechs and children giving the nazi soldiers flowers. The films missed the part where the folks were forced outta their homes, given flags and flowers to cheer the invading troops. Or that they will be shot if they refused.No doubt the nazis watching the film in Germany thought the Czechs loved them to bits.
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cestusdei
Guest
Ah yes, and then folks like you said “peace in our time”. Remember Chamberlain? They let the Czech’s be taken over in the hope that Hitler would be satisfied. He wasn’t and many more died because of their blindness. How many will die because of YOUR blindness. Thank you for bringing up an excellent example of why appeasement fails. Pro seems to support the other side anyway, so I can understand why he wants us to lose.
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pro_universal
Guest
It is utterly despicable of you to accuse anyone who questions the Iraq war or your tirades against Islam of supporting terrorism.
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cestusdei
Guest
pro, you support Hezbullah and Hamas. They are terrorist organizations. You convict yourself without my assistance. My response about the Czech’s was right on target. You guys brought up that excellent example. Again you convict yourselves.
My tirades against beheadings, crucifixions, slavery, and persecutions do upset you. But not as much as those horrors upset me. Why not actually face the facts?
My tirades against beheadings, crucifixions, slavery, and persecutions do upset you. But not as much as those horrors upset me. Why not actually face the facts?
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pro_universal
Guest
Anyone who disagrees with cestusdei is evil, I get it.
Your response was cartoonish and ill reasoned. But you’ll never see that, because you label every critique of your views as support for terrorism.
You’re the kind of “Priest” who drives people away from Catholicism. I’m embarrassed to share a nationality with you. I’ll never again share a faith with you.
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cestusdei
Guest
No, I am the kind of priest that gets beheaded by your co-religionists. Just like this man who I started the thread about. Amazingly you pass over his murder and don’t say a thing. No condemnation…nothing. Just another dead kaffir. And you say I’m the bad guy when you won’t even protest the beheading of an innocent priest. I have no doubt I drive Islamic terrorists away.
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thistle
Guest
Cestusdei is right. You have have not condemned the beheading of the priest. You digress and start asking about Iraq and other things.
DO YOU ABSOLUTELY AND UNCONDITIONALLY CONDEMN THE BEHEADING OF THE PRIEST??
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