Priest clapping along with music at Mass??

[benedictgal]

We are a Resurrection People. When we really consider what we have received, it is impossible to remain dour.
As was mentioned as this thread began, David danced before the Ark of the Covenant without regard for his personal dignity, for his personal position as king. Scripture says to give the Lord “a sacrifice of praise.”
Even in the most exuberant Masses that I have attended, there have been moments of deep solemnity. Indeed, the more exuberant the celebration, the deeper the solemnity when sensing the very real presence of God. We celebrate the Resurrection even as we acknowledge the cost. We give thanks for this incredible gift.
There have been times sitting before the Blessed Sacrament, a time when silence is the only appropriate response, that it has taken all my strength to not shout out with joy.
The song to which I wake every morning is I Can Only Imagine. What will our reaction be when we are finally in heaven? We have a mere glimpse of this reality within the Eucharistic Celebration. The Eucharist is “an action of thansgiving to God.” We celebrate God’s works of creation, redemption, and sanctification (CCC1328)
CCC1327 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.

First of all, the justification that many people use when citing David’s dancing before the Ark is not necessarily appropriate here. David was not doing this within the context of Ancient Israel’s act of cultic worship. True, he wore the ephod, but, this was not done within the sacrificial worship. Those are two entirely different activities.

It is good to have joy during the Mass, but, like all things, it must be done with a measured sobriety and not unbridled. Contrary to what some might think, sobriety, solemnity and dignity do not equate with being dour. It’s just that when we make emotions the end all and be all of the Holy Sacrifice, then, we have entirely misesd the boat. Emotions are fleeting. They are like the clouds. They come and go. Deep joy and reverence are truly penetrating.

By the way, David’s leaping for joy before the Ark of the Covenant foreshadows what John the Baptist did as he lept in the womb in front of the real Ark of the Covenant, the Blessed Mother, who bore in her womb, Jesus. Both had nothing to do with liturgical worship.

 

[Donna_Mc]

God bless you Reff on your journey! I’m glad that you are here on CAF!

Personally, I wouldn’t be comfortable with this either. When there are parish activities in the hall I think this would be great. I just don’t care for this in church. In fact, out teenage children feel the same.

 

[JPUSC]

Here’s some people dancing like David. It’s the kind of exuberance I feel at a nightclub.

catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=41224

 

[benedictgal]

Here’s some people dancing like David. It’s the kind of exuberance I feel at a nightclub.

catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=41224

This reminds me of the comments that Francis Cardinal Arinze made regarding “dancing”:

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Hey, I was dancing last night when Texas beat A&M. It’s okay to do the happy dance, especially since the Cowboys also won, but, not during the Mass.

 

[DebChris]

David was roundly criticized because he dared danced before God.
For me, the Mass is much more than an intellectual pious act.
It involves every part of who I am. Does that mean I run down the aisle without regard for my surroundings? Of course not. God is not a God of disorder.
Does it mean a choreographed liturgical dance? The only time I have seen such dancing is during a revival in a liturgical, although not Eucharistic, celebration. It was very much a rich part of the African American culture of that particular church. And yes, it was very Catholic.
What bringing my whole self into the Eucharist celebration means is just that. It means giving myself, emotions as well as intellect, to God. It means being open to praise God as He chooses to lead me.
For those from a predominantly individualistic Western European culture, it is not always easy to understand how this may very well please God. We can become very set in our own ways. Words will always fail to explain what it means to experience God’s presence encompassing me right where I am.

 

[KingAlfred]

So I was at the 11:00 mass last Sunday(It’s one of those infamous “Guitar-folky” “Happy Clappy Masses”, ugh) and during the recessional hymn, we sang “Soon and Very Soon” and Father started clapping along with the music and yelling “Alleluia and Amen!!” and the congregation joined in clapping too. Is this against the GIRM, it kinda killed the spirit for me.

Folk Masses are too much for me. I can seldom endure them. No…I think that sort of behavior is undignified. I’d like to see a *no-music-option *put on the Catholic Mass menu. Down here in south Texas, the Hispanic influence is overwhelming, and all but sanctifies singing and guitar playing.

 

[JPUSC]

David was roundly criticized because he dared danced before God.
For me, the Mass is much more than an intellectual pious act.
It involves every part of who I am. Does that mean I run down the aisle without regard for my surroundings? Of course not. God is not a God of disorder.
Does it mean a choreographed liturgical dance? The only time I have seen such dancing is during a revival in a liturgical, although not Eucharistic, celebration. It was very much a rich part of the African American culture of that particular church. And yes, it was very Catholic.
What bringing my whole self into the Eucharist celebration means is just that. It means giving myself, emotions as well as intellect, to God. It means being open to praise God as He chooses to lead me.
For those from a predominantly individualistic Western European culture, it is not always easy to understand how this may very well please God. We can become very set in our own ways. Words will always fail to explain what it means to experience God’s presence encompassing me right where I am.

In one of my previous posts, I said that joyous celebrations do exist as part of our Catholic culture in and outside of the Mass. If you belong to a certain culture that views dance as worship, then that is encouraged as long as there are no abuses.

The examples brought up are Masses in the Western world where there is a true crisis in the U.S. Church. When only 30% of American Catholics believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, when 10% of the U.S. population is ex-Catholic and when over half of U.S. Catholics disregarded the Church’s moral guidelines when it came to the recent election, then there is something wrong here.

The importance of the Eucharist and the Church as an institution is gradually becoming lost. Looking at most parishioners during Mass (and yes, at some parishes I directly look them in the face because of how the pews have been rearranged), they do not engage in the “full, active participation” the music ministers think will happen when they use the latest trendy music (which isn’t even not cool or attractive in sound, in my opinion).

At times, the Mass almost seems like a joke with the choir and soloists thinking they’re pop stars when they so are not and when the priest feels the need to liven up the crowd. I see teens rolling their eyes, please…

 

[benedictgal]

David was roundly criticized because he dared danced before God.
For me, the Mass is much more than an intellectual pious act.
It involves every part of who I am. Does that mean I run down the aisle without regard for my surroundings? Of course not. God is not a God of disorder.
Does it mean a choreographed liturgical dance? The only time I have seen such dancing is during a revival in a liturgical, although not Eucharistic, celebration. It was very much a rich part of the African American culture of that particular church. And yes, it was very Catholic.
What bringing my whole self into the Eucharist celebration means is just that. It means giving myself, emotions as well as intellect, to God. It means being open to praise God as He chooses to lead me.
For those from a predominantly individualistic Western European culture, it is not always easy to understand how this may very well please God. We can become very set in our own ways. Words will always fail to explain what it means to experience God’s presence encompassing me right where I am.

First of all,whenever King David is brought up, one should look at the context of the situation rather than try to use what he did as justification for “liturgical dance”. His dancing was not a part of the cultic worship of God that Ancient Israel practiced. This was not done in that context, so the example is not applicable here.

Second, this so-called “liturigal dance”, as Francis Cardinal Arinze notes, is not part of the tradition of the Latin Rite Church:

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance.

Furthermore, active participation should not be equated with an intellectually pious execrise. It means that we need to absorb ourselves in the action of Christ, the High Priest. It doesn’t mean that we should be clapping and engaging in things that are horizontal in nature and focus more on us than on God.

As Pope John Paul II stated in Ecclesia de Eucharistia:

No one is permitted to undervalue the mystery entrusted to our hands; it is too great for anyone to feel free to treat lightly and with disregard for the sacredness and its universality.

I was blessed, earlier this month, to hear the Secretary for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Archbishop Malcolm Rajith. He spoke of the need to have

a sense of profound faith and veneration towards the nobility and celestial dignity of all liturgical acts to be celebrated. A sense of awe at what is being done requires to be cultivated in the way the surroundings of the celebration are handled in its preparation, its celebration and even in the atmosphere that follows.

Granted, what the OP witnessed occured after the blessing, I would wager that the Secretary could make a strong case that even that should not have happened.

 

[anamchara]

So I was at the 11:00 mass last Sunday(It’s one of those infamous “Guitar-folky” “Happy Clappy Masses”, ugh) and during the recessional hymn, we sang “Soon and Very Soon” and Father started clapping along with the music and yelling “Alleluia and Amen!!” and the congregation joined in clapping too. Is this against the GIRM, it kinda killed the spirit for me.

Welcome to the Church reff, glad to see you are diving into the Tiber

If I were you, I would not attend that Mass, if it’s not your style. The reality is that it comes down to personal preference. It’s not usually what’s allowed or not. Although yes, there are certain directives you have to follow. My husband plays the guitar in Mass and our Masses I think are tasteful and reverent. Yes, we do clap to the music at times but it’s not out of control doing cartwheels down the aisle which I think many on CAF think happens if you allow people to clap.

Btw, the use of the word “happy clappy” is pejorative and rather insults those who feel very comfortable in such Masses.

One other thing for all those listening, people who clap to music in mass are not doing this for each other. It is not some sort of entertainment they are engaging in. Their focus is as much on God as those in an EF. The notion that it is some sort of selfish “I want entertainment” need, is a tactic used by people who simply don’t like the style and want to find a way to discredit the people who do. It’s been done on here over and over again.

Yes, we do have rules that need to be followed but I wouldn’t get my answers on CAF for this. We have to listen to our local Bishops for directives and are Priest.

 

[anamchara]

** What bringing my whole self into the Eucharist celebration means is just that. It means giving myself, emotions as well as intellect, to God. It means being open to praise God as He chooses to lead me.**
For those from a predominantly individualistic Western European culture, it is not always easy to understand how this may very well please God. We can become very set in our own ways. Words will always fail to explain what it means to experience God’s presence encompassing me right where I am.

excellent Deb!

 

[FrDavid96]

David was roundly criticized because he dared danced before God.
For me, the Mass is much more than an intellectual pious act.
It involves every part of who I am. Does that mean I run down the aisle without regard for my surroundings? Of course not. God is not a God of disorder.
Does it mean a choreographed liturgical dance? The only time I have seen such dancing is during a revival in a liturgical, although not Eucharistic, celebration. It was very much a rich part of the African American culture of that particular church. And yes, it was very Catholic.
What bringing my whole self into the Eucharist celebration means is just that. It means giving myself, emotions as well as intellect, to God. It means being open to praise God as He chooses to lead me.
For those from a predominantly individualistic Western European culture, it is not always easy to understand how this may very well please God. We can become very set in our own ways. Words will always fail to explain what it means to experience God’s presence encompassing me right where I am.

Refresh my memory here please:

1. How many wives and concubines did King David have?
2. Was he not the one who arranged for the murder of his friend?
3. Did he not dance naked as well?

We can’t just pluck individual verses out of context and use them to justify contemporary practices which have no basis in the totality of the Church’s liturgy and are in complete dis-harmony with the Liturgy.
We cannot use David’s dance to justify contemporary liturgical dance any more than we can use him to justify polygamy.

 

[benedictgal]

Welcome to the Church reff, glad to see you are diving into the Tiber

If I were you, I would not attend that Mass, if it’s not your style. The reality is that it comes down to personal preference. It’s not usually what’s allowed or not. Although yes, there are certain directives you have to follow. My husband plays the guitar in Mass and our Masses I think are tasteful and reverent. Yes, we do clap to the music at times but it’s not out of control doing cartwheels down the aisle which I think many on CAF think happens if you allow people to clap.

Btw, the use of the word “happy clappy” is pejorative and rather insults those who feel very comfortable in such Masses.

One other thing for all those listening, people who clap to music in mass are not doing this for each other. It is not some sort of entertainment they are engaging in. Their focus is as much on God as those in an EF. The notion that it is some sort of selfish “I want entertainment” need, is a tactic used by people who simply don’t like the style and want to find a way to discredit the people who do. It’s been done on here over and over again.

Yes, we do have rules that need to be followed but I wouldn’t get my answers on CAF for this. We have to listen to our local Bishops for directives and are Priest.

Actually, as Francis Cardinal Arinze noted, we are there to worship God, not to clap. The thing is that obedience is a two-way street. Just as one should obey one’s local ordinary, the local ordinary (bishop) in turn, must obey the mandates of the Holy See. Contrary to popular belief the bishop does not have absolute leeway regarding the Mass. In fact, he is limited as to what he can and cannot do.

As Archbishop Rajith told us in St. Louis:

Hence upon them rests ‘a specific responsibility’ in ensuring a correct Ars Celebrandi and, as the GIRM states, must be determined 'that the priests, deacons and the lay Christian faithful grasp ever more deeply, the genuine meaning of the rites and liturgical texts and thereby be led to an active and faithful celebration of the Eucharist. Besides, as Sacramentum Caritatis indicates, they have to be not only the guides of their community in this matter, but also personally examples of the dignified celebration of the Liturgy especially in their own Cathedrals.

Thus, they have to lead by example. Unfortunately, there were some women who walked out on his speech. One of the women assisting with the registration told me that she didn’t agree at all with what he said. That really disappointed me.

I got to ask him a question after his presentation. This was off-stage. I told him that the big problem that I have experiended is the poor music that is used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. He understood what I was saying and he told me that the Holy See is going to release a document early next year that should address the issues that I raised.

 

[FrDavid96]

Welcome to the Church reff, glad to see you are diving into the Tiber

If I were you, I would not attend that Mass, if it’s not your style. The reality is that it comes down to personal preference. It’s not usually what’s allowed or not. Although yes, there are certain directives you have to follow. My husband plays the guitar in Mass and our Masses I think are tasteful and reverent. Yes, we do clap to the music at times but it’s not out of control doing cartwheels down the aisle which I think many on CAF think happens if you allow people to clap.

Btw, the use of the word “happy clappy” is pejorative and rather insults those who feel very comfortable in such Masses.

One other thing for all those listening, people who clap to music in mass are not doing this for each other. It is not some sort of entertainment they are engaging in. Their focus is as much on God as those in an EF. The notion that it is some sort of selfish “I want entertainment” need, is a tactic used by people who simply don’t like the style and want to find a way to discredit the people who do. It’s been done on here over and over again.

Yes, we do have rules that need to be followed but I wouldn’t get my answers on CAF for this. We have to listen to our local Bishops for directives and are Priest.

I’m sorry to tell you this, but the Mass does not come down to a matter of “personal preference” AND the bishops/priests must still follow the liturgical laws of the Church (yes, even the bishops).

Have you thought about “getting your answers” from the liturgical books approved by the Church? I notice that people who support things like clapping and other such actions have a tendency to ignore what the Church says about the Mass. Just an observation.

 

[anamchara]

**I’m sorry to tell you this, but the Mass does not come down to a matter of “personal preference” **AND the bishops/priests must still follow the liturgical laws of the Church (yes, even the bishops).

Have you thought about “getting your answers” from the liturgical books approved by the Church? I notice that people who support things like clapping and other such actions have a tendency to ignore what the Church says about the Mass. Just an observation.

No reason to get snippy with me. I did not imply that’s all it is. I made it clear there are rules to follow. I’ve been on here long enough to know there is a highly conservative slant/agenda so I’m leery about taking anyones word on here. For your information my bishop is orthodox and so is my own priest, yet they both allow for some varying degrees of worship experience within the set rules.

In my observation people seem to ignore the Church is bigger and allows for more than the tiny confines of CAF, EWTN think it does.

Some how I think the Pope and magisterium have much bigger issues to worry over other than a few disgruntled people who complain about people clapping a bit to music in Church.

 

[anamchara]

Actually, as Francis Cardinal Arinze noted, we are there to worship God, not to clap.

You can quote Cardinal Arinze tell the cows come home. And yes, I know he is a hero for many on here. But that is his personal opinion. What you have quoted, I don’t see where he says clapping is not allowed btw.

Let’s keep in mind, we are not talking about an out of control hoe down here when it comes to clapping.

 

[benedictgal]

No reason to get snippy with me. I did not imply that’s all it is. I made it clear there are rules to follow. I’ve been on here long enough to know there is a highly conservative slant/agenda so I’m leery about taking anyones word on here. For your information my bishop is orthodox and so is my own priest, yet they both allow for some varying degrees of worship experience within the set rules.

In my observation people seem to ignore the Church is bigger and allows for more than the tiny confines of CAF, EWTN think it does.

Some how I think the Pope and magisterium have much bigger issues to worry over other than a few disgruntled people who complain about people clapping a bit to music in Church.

Actually, because the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important prayer of the Church and her most valuable treasure, the Holy Father and his Curia certainly have every right to concern himself with the manner in which the liturgy is being celebrated.

As his own prefect, Cardinal Arinze, rightly observes:

we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

Clapping may work for Protestant ecclesial communities because they do not have the fomr of worship that we do. All they have is the Word, but, we have the Sacrifice and that sacrifice requires a great deal of solenity, dignity, reverence and sacredness. When we clap, we lose that sense of the sacred and we lessen the fact that this is not a human activity. We are engaged in something Divine, something that is completely different and Wholly-Other.

As for the priest, as Archbishop Rajith notes:

He should never assume a pedantic and haughty attitude of feeling that she can decide on the rite and add or remove anything at his own will. At the same time he should refrain from every effort at drawing the attention of the congregation to himself but ensure that Christ outshines in everything.

This, I believe, would also apply to anyone exercising some sort of liturgical ministry.

 

[benedictgal]

You can quote Cardinal Arinze tell the cows come home. And yes, I know he is a hero for many on here. But that is his personal opinion. What you have quoted, I don’t see where he says clapping is not allowed btw.

 

[anamchara]

Nor does he say that it is allowed. In fact, he notes that it is out of place during the Mass. The problem, in my opinion, is that we have collectively forgotten that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a solemn, dignified and sacred prayer that unites heaven and earth, and, the entire Church. Are you not aware that the entire Church, the Church Triumphant (the saints and angels in heaven), the Church Militant (ourselves) and the Church Suffering (the souls in purgatory) all come together during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and we celebrate this sacred liturgy in union with the Universal Church?

** Clapping is horizontal.** It focuses on us and on what we are doing. It is as though we have lost sense of the vertical dimension of the liturgy.

Once again, that is your personal opinion. You do not know what is in the heart of others.

 

[FrDavid96]

No reason to get snippy with me. I did not imply that’s all it is. I made it clear there are rules to follow. I’ve been on here long enough to know there is a highly conservative slant/agenda so I’m leery about taking anyones word on here. For your information my bishop is orthodox and so is my own priest, yet they both allow for some varying degrees of worship experience within the set rules.

In my observation people seem to ignore the Church is bigger and allows for more than the tiny confines of CAF, EWTN think it does.

Some how I think the Pope and magisterium have much bigger issues to worry over other than a few disgruntled people who complain about people clapping a bit to music in Church.

Actually, that is exactly what your words implied. How else is one to take the words “The reality is that it comes down to personal preference. It’s not usually what’s allowed or not.”?

That’s not at all “reality.” If it’s not allowed, it’s not allowed. No personal preferences can override that principle.

You say that there are “certain directives” but the tone of your post clearly implies that you are under the impression that arbitrary changes can be made.

Not all variances are “within the rules.” Just because a priest allows something does not make it legitimate.

 

[benedictgal]

Once again, that is your personal opinion. You do not know what is in the heart of others.

But, I do believe that all of us would do well to study the nature of what we are gathering every Sunday to do, and that is to offer the Father a pleasing and acceptable Sacrifice.

Of course, the Holy Father, before he became pope, weighed in on this issue when he wrote, in the Spirit of the Liturgy:

Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of the liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment

In a new book on the Holy Fatherr called Ratzinger’s Faith, author Tracey Rowland notes that:

Benedict believes that the Mass is a Holy Sacrifice, offered ritually as worship, not a fellowship meal, that those who attend do so for the purpose of Divine Worship, that music which is based on most contemporary popular musical forms is completely unworthy, and that everything that is related to the Mass and other liturgies of the Church should be marked by beauty. Beauty is not an optional extra or something contrary to a preferential option for the poor. It is not a scandal to clothe sacred words in silken garments. Catholics are not tone deaf philistines who will be intellectually challenged by the use of a liturgical language or put off by changeless ritual forms

As someone once said, the GIRM, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and Redemptionis Sacramentum do not call for us to clap. They call for us to be reverent, to be silent.

Now, clapping does occur in a couple of instances. When a transitional deacon is presented to the bishop as a candidate for presbyteral ordination, the faithful gathered clap as a sign of their ascent. This also happens for diaconate (permanent and transitional ordinations, as well as episcopal ones). The faithful also clap when the decree of the erection of a new diocese and the installation of same’s new bishop are also read as a sign that they accept the new territory and the new ordinary. But, that is ritual.

What the OP described has nothing to do with ritual whatsoever. The priest should have, in my opinion, been more cognizant that even though the Mass was ended, the attitude of reverence should be maintained. That is what the Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship stressed in his address. I am not being judgmental when I say this, but, would that every priest and bishop have heard the address. For my part, I have already distributed my notes to my parochial vicar and a bunch of priest friends. My PV received it rather well and has begun implementing what the Archbishop noted. The others are starting to take notice as well.