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Saint_Michael
Guest
How do you know there will be no missals in Heaven?
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chicago
Guest
Nor will a word need to be said. Perhaps we ought to just get rid of the text of Liturgy, itself, and sit in silent adoration?
Certainly. And if the best way someone can do that is by following along in the missal or missalette, then by all means they ought!
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estesbob
Guest
Of course there are Missals in heaven:
Revelation 5
**The Scroll and the Lamb **
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Of course unless you were reading along you probably missed this…
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
I don’t think so, and it would interest me to know where you got the circa 1930s. There have been Latin/ venacular missals for a lot longer than that. Being a cradle Catholic of some legacy, I have seen heirloom and antique missals- Latin-English, Latin-German, Latin-French- as old as the mid 1800s.
People as late as the 1960s did not pray along with their hearts. They prayed what was convenient for them, which may or may not have matched the Mass. A lot of people prayed the rosary in the middle of Mass. It was the people with the missals who were praying along with the priest. The rest just followed without any, or very little, understanding. These knew when it was about time for the priest to ring the bells, but didn’t really know what was going on- and didn’t have to know. The priest did it all, or the priest and the altar boys. But the people who read along, they were also praying with “their hearts” as well as their minds.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
Or down below in the pews, where the mic is cutting on and off, and the sound is bouncing off marble.But you don’t have to be either deaf or learning disabled not to be able to hear/understand the readings. Just try to make sense of the garbled, auditory mess that comes out of my church’s sound system, when you’re up in the choir loft.
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HollyRose
Guest
What about those of us who are new to the church and need the missal to help us know what is being said and how to respectfully and appropriately respond? I’m not going to worry about this one way or another, but I’m definitely confused as to how this could help new Catholics or those seeking to be a part of the church in any way. Being able to follow along has helped me to feel a part of the Mass in a new and special way.
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prv
Guest
- QUERY: Are hand missals still needed?
(emphasis mine)
nccbuscc.org/liturgy/girm/bul4.shtml
The key word in all of this is listening. We are called to listen attentively as the reader, deacon or priest proclaims God’s Word. Unless one is unable to hear, one should not be reading along with a text from a missal or missalette.
I’m not sure if this would be considered dispositive, but it does certainly seem to coincide with your pastor.
(emphasis also my own)
I hate to admit this, but seems like everyone is right on the reading portion.
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prv
Guest
nccbuscc.org/liturgy/girm/bul4.shtml
When the Scriptures are read in the Church, God himself is speaking to his people and Christ, present in his own word, is proclaiming the Gospel.
Okay, on this one, I’ll bite. If nobody understands what is being said, then how can people retain the message of the Gospel and retain it in the heart? How are people supposed to worship if they don’t know what is going on? And also, for many people, the Liturgy is where people do learn the faith, very often to the exclusion of other opportunities. This is why the ministry of preaching is of such importance. This is why liturgical abuse is of such grave concern (see other threads). Worship is not exclusive of learning, nor vice versa.
Also from the same:
These words from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal set before us a profound When the Sacred Scriptures are read in the Church, God himself speaks to his people, and Christ, present in his own word, proclaims the Gospel. (GIRM, no. 29) These words from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal set before us a profound truth that we need to ponder and make our own.
(ibid.)
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prv
Guest
Well, as for the priest I think he overreacted. Not very orderly worship. As for the 90 year old lady, if I understand that you tried to “grab” and not just offer your hand, I think you were the one that was out of place in this scenario. See other threads on this topic.
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dcr
Guest
I can’t believe my question generated this much discussion! I was just enjoying all of the responses but had to comment on this one.
You are kidding aren’t you?
PS. I have stopped reading the Magnificat in Mass and try to read it before hand. I miss it, but would rather be obedient and submit believing that grace will be infused as a result.
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InOurLady
Guest
I cannot tell you how much I have enjoyed reading these posts!
You have had me laughing out loud! Especially the dialogue between estesbob and jmcrae! Unbelievable! Relax!
The Mass is the highest expression of love! To love someone, we must know them. God knows your heart, whether you have the readings and the entire Mass memorized, or whether you read along. Your reverential participation is what is critical here. It sounds like most of you pray on a regular basis, and that you want to do what is right by God. If we make an elephant out of this argument, we will miss the true meaning of the Holy Mass!
GOD bless you!
Val
You have had me laughing out loud! Especially the dialogue between estesbob and jmcrae! Unbelievable! Relax!
The Mass is the highest expression of love! To love someone, we must know them. God knows your heart, whether you have the readings and the entire Mass memorized, or whether you read along. Your reverential participation is what is critical here. It sounds like most of you pray on a regular basis, and that you want to do what is right by God. If we make an elephant out of this argument, we will miss the true meaning of the Holy Mass!
GOD bless you!
Val
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I have benefitted from reading the missalette or Magnificat during Mass. I even went thru a period where I read each part of the the Mass even the responses and gestures that were automatic, because they were just that: automatic. Reading gave me a concrete foundation to work from and it deeped my experience (prayer) at Mass. I still do it from time to time as it helps me to remain attentive.
I continue to read along with the reader or lector and struggle through the homily. I remember reading something about St. Teresa of Avila and her spiritual director suggesting reading something during prayer to help her keep focus. I have just applied this to the Mass.
For what it’s worth I watch DVDs with the subtitles because I “hear” it better. There are movies I’ve seen over and over and with the subtitles I get more of the dialog. I don’t think of this as a disability but a difference.
And the directive from the USCCB has bugged me for along time. I do think there is an agenda.
I continue to read along with the reader or lector and struggle through the homily. I remember reading something about St. Teresa of Avila and her spiritual director suggesting reading something during prayer to help her keep focus. I have just applied this to the Mass.
For what it’s worth I watch DVDs with the subtitles because I “hear” it better. There are movies I’ve seen over and over and with the subtitles I get more of the dialog. I don’t think of this as a disability but a difference.
And the directive from the USCCB has bugged me for along time. I do think there is an agenda.
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prv
Guest
On what part? B/c I wasn’t on either.
Okay, on the second part the woman had a right to keep her hands to herself, albeith she could have refused estesbob’s hand a bit more nicely. That is all I’ll concede on that part.
As for the priest, ehhh…even if missals should not be read during Mass, I have a very hard time justifying his actions. Now if estesbob was reading adult magazines during Mass (you know what I mean), then perhaps the priest may have been correct in doing this (you have to fit the punishment with the crime, right?). I’m not even sure that that would be appropriate in this scenario, either.
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Damascus
Guest
Just saw my priest last night. He says people ought to be able to read along but even if they do, he still feels like hes throwing stuff at us that we cant make sense of anyway. The verses need expaination and he thinks it cant be done in the timeframe he has so he doesnt like it being tossed out there anyway. A good point really. So weather you read along or not is not his beef. His problem is nobody is getting value out of it since they dont know the context of the Scriptures most of the time. So he would rather not “toss it out there” at all.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
rr:
Not if the Parish Priest isn’t willing to understand that the person reading is deaf or hard of hearing (as in my case) and can’t hear most readers, or that the reader doesn’t read clearly and loudly enough to be heard and understood (about 1/2 of all layreaders without adaquate training).
There was a reason these things were printed, and it wasn’t because people were disobedient.
YBIC, Michael
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prv
Guest
You can also be hard of hearing even if you have normal physiological senses; such is the case if the church was built with hard floors where the sound bounces. Sometimes this is good (music bounces off the floors with overtones). Also, sometimes a reader (generically, layperson or cleric) has a very soft voice (as noted above).
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