priest does not genuflect at consecration

[chicago]

WRONG. The celebrant is to genuflect, but maybe priests in AmChurch don’t.

While you are correct in that the celebrant is to genufkect (unless, of course, he has good reason - health or whatevr - not to do so), if you approach these sort of things predisposed with the “AmChurch” attitude, you probably already have opened your own can of worms.

 

[po18guy]

The priest may have a knee problem that is not apparent. I know a priest like this. He can walk without a limp, but he simply cannot kneel nor genuflect. To see him, you could not tell he has a mobility problem, but he does.

I’ve had two surgeries on my L4-5 and can still genuflect deeply before receiving. I would ask him.

 

[chicago]

I’ve had two surgeries on my L4-5 and can still genuflect deeply before receiving. I would ask him.

This made me think of a nice way about it.

“Father, I was wondering, do you happen to have a problem with your knees or back? Why do I ask? Oh, I was just concerned about you, that’s all. I happenned to notice that you weren’t genuflecting after the consecrations and thought you may have been in pain. I was worried for you and your health. Said a little prayer, even.”

And let it stand at that.

 

[hamburglar]

WRONG. The celebrant is to genuflect, but maybe priests in AmChurch don’t.

That’s what I thought too, but according to Orionthehunter, the Priest is not supposed to genuflect after the Consecration if the Tabernacle is in the Sanctuary. I think that part might refer to just genuflecting while walking past it, though.

I’ve seen a Priest that didn’t genuflect or bow, and it made me cringe.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I am certain that genuflection is prescribed by the rubrics. I don’t calumniate the priest, who is not the pastor, by stating the obvious truth. I will ask him, perhaps I’ll open the can of worms, so be it.
More and more people are substituting the genuflection with a bow and that is WRONG and offensive to the Lord.

That’s what I thought too, but according to Orionthehunter, the Priest is not supposed to genuflect after the Consecration if the Tabernacle is in the Sanctuary. I think that part might refer to just genuflecting while walking past it, though.

I’ve seen a Priest that didn’t genuflect or bow, and it made me cringe.

You are certain? I thought I was too until your thread caused me to look it up. I think you need to know and understand the context of what I posted previously. Particularly the following:

"If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, **the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect **when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.

And:

“In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.”

My quotes are from the GIRM in the Section labeled “Section IV: Some General Norms for All Forms of Mass”. usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

This is essentially a re-post of an earlier post. I repost it because the OP ignored it. I really strongly suggest that the OP make sure he knows what he is talking about. Not just something he thinks he knows.

My suspicion is that while the GIRM prescribes a bow at the consecration, generally we are usually given lattitude to treat a bow and genuflection interchangeably. And, with this discretion most Priests choose to genuflect. However, this Priest should not be chastised if in fact he is the one that is acting according to the letter of the GIRM.

 

[hamburglar]

My suspicion is that while the GIRM prescribes a bow at the consecration, generally we are usually given lattitude to treat a bow and genuflection interchangeably. And, with this discretion most Priests choose to genuflect. However, this Priest should not be chastised if in fact he is the one that is acting according to the letter of the GIRM.

The slight bow of the head is when he says “This is my Body” and “This is the cup of My Blood.”

I think the question is about genuflection is AFTER the consecration, when the Priest says “let us proclaim the mystery of faith”

I may be completely mis understanding you, though.

If it is the case that the Priest should not genuflect if the Tabernacle is in the sancturaty, I can see how it would be kinda strange if he did in fact genuflect. Since the Priest faces the people in the NO, he wouldn’t be genuflecting to the Tabernacle, but he would be facing the Altar, where the Body and Blood now lay.

Also, when it says the other ministers genuflect, couldn’t that cause problems if they are carrying candles? And it seems strange to genuflect to the Altar if the Blessed Sacrament is not present on the Altar itself.

 

[CarrieH]

The priest may have a knee problem that is not apparent. I know a priest like this. He can walk without a limp, but he simply cannot kneel nor genuflect. To see him, you could not tell he has a mobility problem, but he does.

I can vouch for that – I had my right knee entirely rebuilt at the tender age of 23 following a major injury. They didn’t do a joint replacement because I was too young. I can walk without a limp (but it took 4 months of physical therapy to get me to that point), run short distances (to catch the bus, for example), and ride a bike. I wear longer skirts or loose-fitting slacks anyway, so you wouldn’t see the deformity and the 8" scar unless I showed it to you. If anyone thinks, “look at that woman, she never genuflects, shame on her,” that’s their sin for judging me. I’ll be happy to genuflect if they will stand by to help me up!

 

[palmas85]

I can vouch for that – I had my right knee entirely rebuilt at the tender age of 23 following a major injury. I can walk without a limp (but it took 4 months of physical therapy to get me to that point), run short distances (to catch the bus, for example), and ride a bike. I wear longer skirts or loose-fitting slacks anyway, so you wouldn’t see the deformity and the 8" scar unless I showed it to you. If anyone thinks, “look at that woman, she never genuflects, shame on her,” that’s their sin for judging me. I’ll be happy to genuflect if they will stand by to help me up!

I would think you have to bend your knees to ride a bike at a more extreme angle then when you genuflect. I have seen people with knee problems genuflect partially, and I think that is fine. At least they make the effort.

 

[HenryV]

You are certain? I thought I was too until your thread caused me to look it up. I think you need to know and understand the context of what I posted previously. Particularly the following:

"If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, **the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect **when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.

And:

“In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.”

My quotes are from the GIRM in the Section labeled “Section IV: Some General Norms for All Forms of Mass”. usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

This is essentially a re-post of an earlier post. I repost it because the OP ignored it. I really strongly suggest that the OP make sure he knows what he is talking about. Not just something he thinks he knows.

My suspicion is that while the GIRM prescribes a bow at the consecration, generally we are usually given lattitude to treat a bow and genuflection interchangeably. And, with this discretion most Priests choose to genuflect. However, this Priest should not be chastised if in fact he is the one that is acting according to the letter of the GIRM.

The GIRM is just general instructions and no the rubrics that are printed in the missal according to the rubrics there is genuflection at both consecrations.

 

[CarrieH]

I would think you have to bend your knees to ride a bike at a more extreme angle then when you genuflect.

It’s not so much the angle as the amount of muscle effort required, and the strain on the joint. Riding a 12-speed road bike gives me options for gearing up or down, thereby minimizing the strain on my knee. And if you have the seat high enough, that also decreases the work of both knees. Even so, I only ride around the neighborhood; I’m hardly a triathlete.

I do the double-knee genuflection when I go to Adoration, but they have a grab-bar there to help the infirm to get back up. And I have come up with a little “dip” movement which I can do as a feeble attempt at single-knee genuflection, as long as I’m holding onto a pew. But if I had to do it without something to hold onto, I would surely wind up on the floor and it wouldn’t be pretty…or modest.

 

[Orionthehunter]

The GIRM is just general **instructions **and no the rubrics that are printed in the missal according to the rubrics there is genuflection at both consecrations.

GIRM: General Instruction of the Roman Missal

These are INSTRUCTIONS. To me, that means to be followed by the Celebrants. I think you need to show some reference which claims that there is to be genuflection at both consecrations which supercedes these INSTRUCTIONS and makes them null and void.

Both of the following can be found at usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml

The following is the Decree of Confirmation of the GIRM by the Vatican.

The United States of America

At the request of His Excellency, the Most Reverend Wilton D. Gregory, Bishop of Belleville, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, in a letter of November 13, 2002, and in virtue of the faculties granted to this Congregation by the Supreme Pontiff JOHN PAUL II, we gladly confirm and approve the English translation of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, excerpted from the third typical edition of the same Missal, as in the attached copy.

Two copies of the printed text should be forwarded to this Congregation.

All things to the contrary notwithstanding.

From the offices of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, March 17, 2003.

• Francis Cardinal Arinze
  Prefect
• Franciscus Pius Tamburrino
  Archbishop-Secretary

The following is the Decree of Publication by the USCCB.

In accord with the norms established by decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites in Cum, nostra ætate (January 27, 1966), this edition of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal is declared to be the vernacular typical edition of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia in the dioceses of the United States of America, and is published by authority of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal was canonically approved for use by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on November 12, 2002, and was subsequently confirmed by the Holy See by decree of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments on March 17, 2003 (Prot. N. 2235/02/L).

Effective immediately, this translation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal is the sole translation of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia for use in the dioceses of the United States of America.

Given at the General Secretariat of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C., on March 19, 2003, the Feast of Saint Joseph, Husband of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Most Reverend Wilton D. Gregory
Bishop of Belleville
President

Reverend Monsignor William P. Fay
General Secretary

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

 

[japhy]

“If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, **the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect **when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.”

“In addition, the priest bows slightly as he speaks the words of the Lord at the consecration.”

The bow is at the words of consecration (“This is my body…” and “This is the cup of my blood…”). The genuflection is after he has shown the Precious Blood and Precious Blood to the faithful immediately after the consecration. They are two separate gestures.

You are correct in that, if the tabernacle is present in the Sanctuary (and has the Blessed Sacrament reserved in it), the priest genuflects upon approaching the altar and upon departing from it, and not throughout the Mass. HOWEVER, I am not sure this is supposed to be taken out of the context of the next sentence of #274: “Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.” In other words, I think “not during the celebration of Mass itself” is referring to genuflections that would otherwise be made to the Tabernacle.

I think there might be ambiguity here that needs resolving.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Please be in a calm frame of mind when you ask. Spend time in prayer for this priest ahead of time.

 

[hamburglar]

In other words, I think “not during the celebration of Mass itself” is referring to genuflections that would otherwise be made to the Tabernacle.

I think there might be ambiguity here that needs resolving.

That’s what I was thinking it is referring to.

 

[japhy]

That’s what I was thinking it is referring to.

Here’s the Latin of #274, with my feeble attempt at a translation:
274. Genuflexio, quae fit dextero genu flectendo usque ad terram, adorationem significat; [Genuflection, which is bending the right knee all the way to the ground, signifies adoration] ideoque reservatur Ss.mo Sacramento, [therefore it is reserved for the Most Blessed Sacrament] et sanctae Cruci inde a sollemni adoratione in Actione liturgica feriae VI in Passione Domini, [and for the Holy Cross from the solemn adoration during the liturgical celebration of Good Friday] usque ad initium Vigiliae paschalis. [all the way to the beginning of the Easter Vigil.]

In Missa tres genuflexiones fiunt a sacerdote celebrante, hoc est: [In the Mass three genuflections are made by the celebrant priest, which are:] post ostensionem hostiae, post ostensionem calicis et ante Communionem. [after showing the Host, after showing the Chalice, and before Communion.] Peculiaritates in Missa concelebrata servandae suis locis notantur (cf. nn. 210-251). [Peculiarities in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their place (#210-251).]

Si vero tabernaculum cum SS.mo Sacramento sit in presbyterio, [If, in fact, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is in the Sanctuary,] sacerdos, diaconus et alii ministri genuflectunt, cum ad altare perveniunt, [priests, deacons, and other ministers **genuflect, when approaching the altar] vel ab eo recedunt, [and when they depart from it,] non autem durante ipsa Missae celebratione. [but not during the celebration of Mass itself.]

[Here’s the ambiguity… genuflect to what? The tabernacle *with the Most Blessed Sacrament, or just the Most Blessed Sacrament?]

Secus genuflectunt omnes qui ante Ss.mum Sacramentum transeunt, [Otherwise all genuflect who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament,] nisi processionaliter incedant. [unless moving in procession.]

Ministri qui crucem processionalem vel cereos deferunt, loco genuflexionis inclinationem capitis faciunt.
I think the mention of the tabernacle implies that, throughout the course of the celebration of the Mass, one genuflects to the tabernacle containing the M.B.S. (unless the person is in a procession) UNLESS that tabernacle is in the Sanctuary itself. The reason being, the priest, in walking around in the Sanctuary, would have to continually genuflect whenever passing it (which wouldn’t be the case if it were outside the Sanctuary).

Perhaps this is a question for the liturgical analysts at EWTN?

 

[Orionthehunter]

The bow is at the words of consecration (“This is my body…” and “This is the cup of my blood…”). The genuflection is after he has shown the Precious Blood and Precious Blood to the faithful immediately after the consecration. They are two separate gestures.

You are correct in that, if the tabernacle is present in the Sanctuary (and has the Blessed Sacrament reserved in it), the priest genuflects upon approaching the altar and upon departing from it, and not throughout the Mass. HOWEVER, I am not sure this is supposed to be taken out of the context of the next sentence of #274: “Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.” In other words, I think “not during the celebration of Mass itself” is referring to genuflections that would otherwise be made to the Tabernacle.

I think there might be ambiguity here that needs resolving.

I agree there is some ambiguity or confusion. And, I’m still leaning the opposite to your interpretation of what is written (my heart agrees with you).

Note what I have bolded from the section (274) we agree is the driving section of the GIRM. Note that it says “If, however,”. The however has to refer to something previously said. And the only thing previously said in this regard is about the three genuflections. If the intent was as you interpret, the “however” is unnecessary and is what makes it confusing. If they had left it out, I think you could determine that it is a statement that stands alone. But with the word “however”, it makes me think that they are together/linked.

Also, since they say “not during the celebration of the Mass itself”. This appears to be from beginning to end. If their intent was to have these genuflections during the consecration, it would have been easy to add “except during the consecration” at the end of the sentence.

During Mass, three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of the host, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Certain specific features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place (cf. above, nos. 210-251).

If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.

 

[japhy]

Here are some excerpts from EWTN answers:

“However, if a Tabernacle is present in the sanctuary, while the genuflection is called for upon processing in and before processing out, during the course of the Mass the ministers in the sanctuary (priests, deacons, servers), do not genuflect when they pass in front of it.” (New GIRM - Genuflections)

“However, once the Lord is present on the altar His Presence there should be the object of adoration and thus genuflection of these others.” (Liturgy- Bowing and Genuflecting)

It’s interesting to note that EWTN’s translation of the IGMR into English does not match that offered by the USCCB. The word “however” is not rendered (among other changes).

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Japhy: Here are some excerpts from EWTN answers:

“However, if a Tabernacle is present in the sanctuary, while the genuflection is called for upon processing in and before processing out, during the course of the Mass the ministers in the sanctuary (priests, deacons, servers), do not genuflect when they pass in front of it.” (New GIRM - Genuflections)

“However, once the Lord is present on the altar His Presence there should be the object of adoration and thus genuflection of these others.” (Liturgy- Bowing and Genuflecting)

It’s interesting to note that EWTN’s translation of the IGMR into English does not match that offered by the USCCB. The word “however” is not rendered (among other changes)./

Japhy, I think you are really talking me into the position that genuflection is not correct. EWTN (as much as I love the station, all their shows, and their hosts) is not a Bishop. It is the document on the USCCB website that is accompanied by a Decree of Confirmation from the Vatican. The Decree specifically says that the Vatican approves this translation which includes the word “however”.

Because the EWTN translation deletes it and the deletion then is used to claim that the three genuflections are to be included in the Mass, I tend to think that while it is still ambiguous and in need of clarification, the evidence appears to be on the side of “no genuflection”.

 

[Sure]

Japhy, I think you are really talking me into the position that genuflection is not correct. EWTN (as much as I love the station, all their shows, and their hosts) is not a Bishop. It is the document on the USCCB website that is accompanied by a Decree of Confirmation from the Vatican. The Decree specifically says that the Vatican approves this translation which includes the word “however”.

Because the EWTN translation deletes it and the deletion then is used to claim that the three genuflections are to be included in the Mass, I tend to think that while it is still ambiguous and in need of clarification, the evidence appears to be on the side of “no genuflection”.

No genuflection when? At the beginning and end of Mass or after the elevations?

 

[Orionthehunter]

No genuflection when? At the beginning and end of Mass or after the elevations?

After the elevations. And personally, I like the genuflection. I hope I am reading it incorrectly. It appears that most on this thread hope I am reading it incorrectly. I just wish someone could give me a source that would cause me to rethink what I’m reading.

But this exercise is pointing out to me the danger in laity trying to be liturgy police.